Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
10 years ago

I couldn't disagree with you more. And then to make exponentially worse, you have morons who have the nerve to say those minorities have been treated well.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



I know we disagree.

1. I don't take credit for the good things my father did, and I don't take the blame for the bad things he did. And I certainly am not going to assume the blame for the evil things people in my ancestry did generations back and I am not going to feel personally responsible for the evil things people a half continent away (regardless of whether they are in my ancestry or not) did a century and a half ago just because I happen to have skin of a particular color.

2. Were slaves treated "well"? No, of course not. By definition, enslaving someone is not treating them well. Were they treated better than most of us were told in grade school and high school history classes, however? Almost certainly. Bob Fogel won a Nobel Prize. He wasn't a moron. What he was, among other things, was someone who put in thousands of hours and who had colleagues and students who each put in thousands more, studying the realities of slavery in America.

And the result of these thousands upon thousands of hours of careful and painstaking research into plantation records, slave markets, slave narratives, an amount of archival research and careful thinking that I am, frankly, bloody amazed at? It's pretty clear that, for most slaveowners, slaves were far too important to their (the slaveowners') prosperity to treat them as badly as we were taught. And, in fact, in some significant ways, northern industrial workers were treated even worse by their employers.

I'd suggest, again, that you read Fogel's Without Consent or Contract. But I know you'd just tell me, again, that you don't have time to read the first "popular audience" volume, must less the additional volumes where he puts the serious empirical details out there.

None of this makes slavery any less evil. Indeed, for me, it made it even worse, because the real problem was not that the plantation masters didn't treat their capital assets well. The problem is that they reduced human beings to capital assets, saying to them, in effect, "You're just another machine like my cotton gin or my plow. You have no more freedom of choice than that cotton gin or my plow."

The primary evil of slavery was not the appropriation of economic wealth from slaves or creating an uneven playing field for their descendants. The primary evil of slavery was the taking of their freedom to make their own decisions and choose the path of their own future.

And freedom once lost cannot be compensated for. It's gone for that person forever. You don't make up for stolen freedom of one person by taking choices away from another generations later. All you do is continue the destruction of freedom.

We need to remember the past. We need to remember what happens to freedom when you reduce a person to his color or his "race". But we don't need to remember it because we need to give back to people now dead what can't ever be given back.

We need to remember that categorizing people by an artificial human category is bad. Period. Because, in the end, race is just a concept human beings have invented to put people into categories that allow them to do bad stuff to other people.

Judging people because of their "race" is bad. Period.

Thinking of race as a basis for decisions is bad. Period.

Using race as a criterion for interaction with another human being is bad. Period.

Using race as a criterion for deciding how to restrict another human being's choices is bad. Period.

Always.




And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
10 years ago
Oh, and by the way, our President -- who, by the way, like each of his predecessors in my lifetime, is almost certainly going to exit office far wealthier than he entered it -- deserves more bad treatment than he's gotten. Not because of his race, but because he's a pinhead even by the incredibly low standards we must apply to the pinheads we call "elected officials."

Hell, he's a bigger pinhead than just about any politician I can remember.

Okay, maybe not a bigger pinhead than Robert Byrd or Jesse Helms.


And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
DakotaT
  • DakotaT
  • Select Member Topic Starter
10 years ago

I know we disagree.

1. I don't take credit for the good things my father did, and I don't take the blame for the bad things he did. And I certainly am not going to assume the blame for the evil things people in my ancestry did generations back and I am not going to feel personally responsible for the evil things people a half continent away (regardless of whether they are in my ancestry or not) did a century and a half ago just because I happen to have skin of a particular color.

2. Were slaves treated "well"? No, of course not. By definition, enslaving someone is not treating them well. Were they treated better than most of us were told in grade school and high school history classes, however? Almost certainly. Bob Fogel won a Nobel Prize. He wasn't a moron. What he was, among other things, was someone who put in thousands of hours and who had colleagues and students who each put in thousands more, studying the realities of slavery in America.

And the result of these thousands upon thousands of hours of careful and painstaking research into plantation records, slave markets, slave narratives, an amount of archival research and careful thinking that I am, frankly, bloody amazed at? It's pretty clear that, for most slaveowners, slaves were far too important to their (the slaveowners') prosperity to treat them as badly as we were taught. And, in fact, in some significant ways, northern industrial workers were treated even worse by their employers.

I'd suggest, again, that you read Fogel's Without Consent or Contract. But I know you'd just tell me, again, that you don't have time to read the first "popular audience" volume, must less the additional volumes where he puts the serious empirical details out there.

None of this makes slavery any less evil. Indeed, for me, it made it even worse, because the real problem was not that the plantation masters didn't treat their capital assets well. The problem is that they reduced human beings to capital assets, saying to them, in effect, "You're just another machine like my cotton gin or my plow. You have no more freedom of choice than that cotton gin or my plow."

The primary evil of slavery was not the appropriation of economic wealth from slaves or creating an uneven playing field for their descendants. The primary evil of slavery was the taking of their freedom to make their own decisions and choose the path of their own future.

And freedom once lost cannot be compensated for. It's gone for that person forever. You don't make up for stolen freedom of one person by taking choices away from another generations later. All you do is continue the destruction of freedom.

We need to remember the past. We need to remember what happens to freedom when you reduce a person to his color or his "race". But we don't need to remember it because we need to give back to people now dead what can't ever be given back.

We need to remember that categorizing people by an artificial human category is bad. Period. Because, in the end, race is just a concept human beings have invented to put people into categories that allow them to do bad stuff to other people.

Judging people because of their "race" is bad. Period.

Thinking of race as a basis for decisions is bad. Period.

Using race as a criterion for interaction with another human being is bad. Period.

Using race as a criterion for deciding how to restrict another human being's choices is bad. Period.

Always.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



The primary evil of slavery was taking away their human dignity. The effect of slavery was ill gotten wealth by plantation owners, the compounding effect is the state of blacks living in poverty today. Let's not forget this country kept up it suppression of the blacks until the civil rights movement in the 1960's, and in the red redneck states - it continues.
UserPostedImage
texaspackerbacker
10 years ago

The primary evil of slavery was taking away their human dignity. The effect of slavery was ill gotten wealth by plantation owners, the compounding effect is the state of blacks living in poverty today. Let's not forget this country kept up it suppression of the blacks until the civil rights movement in the 1960's, and in the red redneck states - it continues.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



You actually have the SUPREME GALL to post that? You, with the modern day RACIST shit that you so consistently post?

The primary evil of slavery was 1. being kidnapped and sold - by different tribes of their own race 2. being hauled across the ocean in horrible conditions and dying in great numbers 3. being sold - 80-85% of them in Caribbean countries, 15-20% of them in the Southern U.S. 4. being whipped and chained and treated poorly - very rarely in the U.S. Those plantation owners, in the great majority of cases, provided MUCH better conditions for their slaves than what they had after the Civil War when they were free. That, however, bad as it is, is ancient history.

And you want to whine about treatment of blacks in the '60s and before? Just a guess, but I would say the primary evils were 1. lynchings and cross burnings 2. segregation 3. disenfranchisement in voting. That, too, is ancient history, thanks mainly to the Civil Rights laws which YOUR favorite party got dragged screaming and filibustering to.

Do you see ANY of that stuff now? Hell No!

What you do see is the exact LIBERAL RACIST SHIT which you and the rest of the sick political leftists keep pushing: To use your own whiny words, it's about HUMAN DIGNITY. Your stinking LIBERAL politicians portray black people as thugs - as pointed out by you, yourself in this thread, but worse even than that, YOUR side pictures black people as inferior/unable to cope or survive and thrive without your sick welfare and regulations to unlevel the playing field. Still worse, your side steals 94% or so of black votes - what I have referred to as "keeping blacks down on the LIBERAL plantation", while supporting all manner of sick and disgusting CHANGE - abortion, homosexuality, etc. - which blacks, the great majority of whom are Good and Normal just like white people, hate and detest.

THESE are the facts; You probably will try to run and hide like a little piss ant - as you so often do, but you can't escape those facts. SHAME ON YOU FOR PERSISTING IN YOUR RACIST LEFTIST BULLSHIT!


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