texaspackerbacker
10 years ago

Dodd, you socialist, don't you know taxpayer dollars are for the War Machine only, so that we create more wealth redistribution to the 1%ers?

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



Oh, now it starts! I applauded you earlier, Dakota, when you made a rare sensible comment, but now you're back to this shit.

As I have said MANY times, the kind of stuff Dodd is talking about absolutely is NOT mutually exclusive with military spending. I'm as much against foreign aid to just about anybody other than Israel as anybody here. However, the "War Machine" is something else. Not only is maintaining our position as far and away the strongest military power in the world the absolute top spending priority, it (the same has the infrastructure spending Dodd described and a multitude of other things) BENEFITS the economy in a greatly multiplied way - money injected/income not just through the corporate profits you hate, but job income to a broad spectrum of people who then spend it, providing more income for more people, and so on. This is economic FACT - not pie in the sky.

In addition to the potential human tragedy that could come from an ISIS or other major terrorist success, the economic dampening, as after 9/11, would be catastrophic. That much - stopping ISIS from getting strong enough to hit us at home is essential. The question mark comes when we consider whether to extend that to stopping them where THEY live - basically serving as "do-gooders"/"policing the world"/"interventionist foreign policy, whatever you want to call it. Considering the cost to us - human a lot more than financial, I'm conflicted as to whether I'm for or against that - or at what point we draw the line.
Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
10 years ago



Anyway, your Clausewitzian thing says "if someone else shoots first ......". How do we define that? Wait for the next 9/11 or worse? .

Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker 



1. Ok, it's a point. But, to me, its one of geography. Americans hang out on other people's soil, they assume risks. If you attack Americans on their soil (i.e., 9/11, a embassy, a military base), then you've "shot first".

Sure, that gives the bad guys a free shot. One. But, see, none of the bad guys is big enough to stand up to unmeasured response.

2. Because that's my main point. You go to the knife, you go all in. You don't measure yourself against civilized standards. Attacking first is a waiver of the right to be treated as anything other than a barbarian.

You don't worry about what happens when the bombing stops. Because you get to decide when the bombing stops.

The Germans have never attacked again. THey're no longer barbarians. The Japanese have never attacked again. They're no longer barbarians.

Choose to be a barbarian if you want. Choose to be a barbarian and attack us? You're on death sentence until *we* decide you've become civilized enough.

Do Americans have that kind of will any more? Probably not. I can't imagine us electing politicians that have that kind of will and character. Unfortunately.


And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
10 years ago

1. Ok, it's a point. But, to me, its one of geography. Americans hang out on other people's soil, they assume risks. If you attack Americans on their soil (i.e., 9/11, a embassy, a military base), then you've "shot first".

Sure, that gives the bad guys a free shot. One. But, see, none of the bad guys is big enough to stand up to unmeasured response.

2. Because that's my main point. You go to the knife, you go all in. You don't measure yourself against civilized standards. Attacking first is a waiver of the right to be treated as anything other than a barbarian.

You don't worry about what happens when the bombing stops. Because you get to decide when the bombing stops.

The Germans have never attacked again. THey're no longer barbarians. The Japanese have never attacked again. They're no longer barbarians.

Choose to be a barbarian if you want. Choose to be a barbarian and attack us? You're on death sentence until *we* decide you've become civilized enough.

Do Americans have that kind of will any more? Probably not. I can't imagine us electing politicians that have that kind of will and character. Unfortunately.

We've forgotten what tolerance is supposed to be. It's letting barbarians go to hell in their own way. It's not letting those barbarians define the terms of engagement when the barbarians move out of their sandbox.

Originally Posted by: Wade 




And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
texaspackerbacker
10 years ago

1. Ok, it's a point. But, to me, its one of geography. Americans hang out on other people's soil, they assume risks. If you attack Americans on their soil (i.e., 9/11, a embassy, a military base), then you've "shot first".

Sure, that gives the bad guys a free shot. One. But, see, none of the bad guys is big enough to stand up to unmeasured response.

2. Because that's my main point. You go to the knife, you go all in. You don't measure yourself against civilized standards. Attacking first is a waiver of the right to be treated as anything other than a barbarian.

You don't worry about what happens when the bombing stops. Because you get to decide when the bombing stops.

The Germans have never attacked again. THey're no longer barbarians. The Japanese have never attacked again. They're no longer barbarians.

Choose to be a barbarian if you want. Choose to be a barbarian and attack us? You're on death sentence until *we* decide you've become civilized enough.

Do Americans have that kind of will any more? Probably not. I can't imagine us electing politicians that have that kind of will and character. Unfortunately.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



Yeah, Wade, we make you the president - nope, make that the benevolent dictator, and then maybe it would work. However, your last line says it all. A politician making that kind of a threat would get absolutely crucified by the damn leftist mainstream media and the p.c. crowd who eat their shit up. And for the "unmeasured response" to survive that wrath of that p.c. crowd, the first hit by the enemy would have to be pretty damn horrendous. Maybe that's what it will come down to - we lose a city or two, but even then, do you really think we would ever basically take out the whole Muslim world?
Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Rockmolder
10 years ago

Yeah, Wade, we make you the president - nope, make that the benevolent dictator, and then maybe it would work. However, your last line says it all. A politician making that kind of a threat would get absolutely crucified by the damn leftist mainstream media and the p.c. crowd who eat their shit up. And for the "unmeasured response" to survive that wrath of that p.c. crowd, the first hit by the enemy would have to be pretty damn horrendous. Maybe that's what it will come down to - we lose a city or two, but even then, do you really think we would ever basically take out the whole Muslim world?

Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker 



I very much doubt so.

Would you burn your entire house down, because you have a shoddy wall?

Or should we take out the entire Christian part of the US because of the Westboro Baptist Church?
dfosterf
10 years ago
VERY boring post, as it requires one to read, contrasted with spouting off. Since we are going to war again, and since none of us will have an actual investment in it, I don't think it would kill anyone to invest a whole 10 minutes of their life to read about the etymology of ISIS, ISIL, IS, Al-Qaeda of Iraq. the various names/guises, operations, etc.

Whoever wrote this wiki had their shit together, imo


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant 


Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
10 years ago

Yeah, Wade, we make you the president - nope, make that the benevolent dictator, and then maybe it would work. However, your last line says it all. A politician making that kind of a threat would get absolutely crucified by the damn leftist mainstream media and the p.c. crowd who eat their sh*t up. And for the "unmeasured response" to survive that wrath of that p.c. crowd, the first hit by the enemy would have to be pretty damn horrendous. Maybe that's what it will come down to - we lose a city or two, but even then, do you really think we would ever basically take out the whole Muslim world?

Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker 



1. No. But I don't imagine "the whole Muslim world" ever attacking us. I have some serious issues with even "mainstream" Muslim theology, not all of which are encapsulated under the rubric of "every Christian should". But I do not see all Muslims as ISIS/binLaden/Khomeini/et al.

2. My point is about holding states accountable. If a state supports an attack, it doesn't get to blame the "extreme elements" or "religious true believers" who pulled the trigger. I think the fear misplaced that "the whole Muslim world" will respond with world-wide escalation if the USA were to treat a particular Islamic state with what I have advocated. Because Islam is not an inherently "barbaric" religion, and Muslims are not inherently barbarians.

Theologically wrong-headed, yes. I cannot see how I can claim Jesus as my God and not consider Mohammedans wrong in their theology. But barbarians or the willing sponsors of barbarians? No.


And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
10 years ago

VERY boring post, as it requires one to read, contrasted with spouting off. Since we are going to war again, and since none of us will have an actual investment in it, I don't think it would kill anyone to invest a whole 10 minutes of their life to read about the etymology of ISIS, ISIL, IS, Al-Qaeda of Iraq. the various names/guises, operations, etc.

Whoever wrote this wiki had their sh*t together, imo


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant 


Originally Posted by: dfosterf 



From that article:

The Islamic State (IS; Arabic: الدولة الإسلامية‎ ad-Dawlah l-ʾIslāmiyyah), previously calling itself the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL; /ˈaɪsəl/) or the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS; /ˈaɪsɪs/; Arabic: الدولة الإسلامية في العراق والشام‎), and also known by the Arabic acronym Daʿesh (داعش),🅰 is an unrecognized state and a Sunni jihadist group active in Iraq and Syria in the Middle East. In its self-proclaimed status as a caliphate, it claims religious authority over all Muslims across the world[67] and aspires to bring most of the Muslim-inhabited regions of the world under its political control[68] beginning with territory in the Levant region which includes Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Lebanon, Cyprus and part of southern Turkey.[



States claim lots of things. That's part of why I am so "extreme" in my advocacy of reaction against states (or wannabe states) who sponsor attacks outside themselves. State-ness doesn't -- or, IMO, shouldn't -- ever insulate barbarians from the consequences of their actions against others. Regardless of the source they claim for their purported "authority".
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
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