mi_keys
11 years ago

Although I disagree with the placebo claim, does it really matter? Often, perception is reality. If a placebo eliminates the symptoms, than the placebo is just as good as "actual treatment or medicine." The ends justify the means. The brain and mind are powerful things.

Either way, the philosophy of most chiropractic and alternative medicine work is that the body can often heal itself as long as it's allowed to do so. The goal of the treatment is to simply do whatever it takes to facilitate the bodies natural healing processes. Nothing more, really. A few quacks don't represent the majority, just like they shouldn't for western medicine. It's by no means a cure-all, but it's very often a useful and effective component of a treatment regiment. One that is far under-utilized by western medicine. The goal is to target the core issue rather than only the symptoms, which western medicine focuses on almost exclusively for many issues.

Originally Posted by: DoddPower 



If, for the sake of argument, you grant that it is a placebo, it does matter because by definition it is not targeting the core issue. It's only treating a symptom, and doing so no more efficaciously than any other placebo source.

If, again for the sake of argument, we grant it is a placebo effect, it is one thing to treat cases of pain where the underlying cause will not have any other complications. There are only two potential downsides I can think of offhand in these cases: (1) foregoing a treatment that actually does resolve the source of the issue and thus, forego a more effective treatment; and/or (2) the potential you cause complications with the treatment you're using (e.g. cause a back injury through chiropractic care or fail to sanitize a needle used in acupuncture, which risk may not be material).

The danger lies in, if it is a placebo, situations in which the underlying cause can and/or will cause future complications (e.g. a herniated disc that's structurally compromised to the point that a further hit stressing that region is at a higher risk of causing permanent damage or paralysis). That's a recipe for disaster.

That's why the placebo point matters.
Born and bred a cheesehead
Dulak
11 years ago

I'm sure Collins had plenty of insight into various treatments and such. I see no reason or evidence to assume that him having surgery was a mistake. Players have had the surgery before and still played football it just didn't work out in his case.

Originally Posted by: steveishere 



Going to have to dispute the - "insight that collins had into various treatments and such; and no evidence surgery was a mistake."

Injury date Sun, Sep 18, 2011
Surgery Date Thu, Sep 29, 2011

"A tough break after an initial CT scan of Collins' neck came back negative. Collins underwent surgery Thursday night that involved cervical fusion, having two vertebrae fused after an MRI revealed a herniated disc.
Collins was released ahead of the 2012 season and was advised to end his pursuit of football."

I am looking at this as a bystander. And am not privy to his medical reports.

So we see we had a negative CT scan; and if I recall he had 0 symptoms, an MRI revealed a herniated disc.

Surgery was performed and his career was over.

Ive stated my strong statements about this in the past but I will do it again.

1. We have to ask what coercion was used on collins to give him only 11 days to choose career ending surgery over alternative care.
2. And to go along with the above. 11 days - I wonder how much conservative care collins was offered and done during this time. Again to a patient with no symptoms.
http://www.chirogeek.com/000_MRI-Abnormalities_Asymptomatic-Pats.htm#1 
suggesting that people with no symptoms will 30% of the time show a disc bulge.
and other such stats.

In the past I linked an article saying the average cost for cervical disc surgery was 130ishk. So lets say collins surgery was around that or more.

So 130k for treatment to someone with no symptoms; that has the potential to permanently affect someones life let alone end his professional football career and not giving or suggesting this patient seek conservative care first.

The above just blows my mind ... and we as a society accept this as the norm.
nerdmann
11 years ago
Has anyone heard the actual diagnosis? If it's stenosis, then he'd probably need more than three weeks of acupuncture.

As for "placebo," that effect has a limited effect. It will maybe last 2-3 months with most treatments.

As for "studies" of acupuncture. What they do in those studies is called "medical acupuncture." That's not real acupuncture. I call it "sham needling." In real acupuncture, everyone doesn't get the exact same treatment, because no to cases are the same. Still, the efficacy is proven.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
DoddPower
11 years ago

If, for the sake of argument, you grant that it is a placebo, it does matter because by definition it is not targeting the core issue. It's only treating a symptom, and doing so no more efficaciously than any other placebo source.

If, again for the sake of argument, we grant it is a placebo effect, it is one thing to treat cases of pain where the underlying cause will not have any other complications. There are only two potential downsides I can think of offhand in these cases: (1) foregoing a treatment that actually does resolve the source of the issue and thus, forego a more effective treatment; and/or (2) the potential you cause complications with the treatment you're using (e.g. cause a back injury through chiropractic care or fail to sanitize a needle used in acupuncture, which risk may not be material).

The danger lies in, if it is a placebo, situations in which the underlying cause can and/or will cause future complications (e.g. a herniated disc that's structurally compromised to the point that a further hit stressing that region is at a higher risk of causing permanent damage or paralysis). That's a recipe for disaster.

That's why the placebo point matters.

Originally Posted by: mi_keys 



I can mostly agree from a structural perspective. But many issues are triggered by stress and such, a few of which I suffer from (heartburn, gastrointestinal inflammation). Stress is actually by far my number one trigger. If anything actually reduces my stress levels, or makes me think it does, the symptoms may be reduced or relieved. Often, I will not experience symptoms at all for long periods of time. I've certainly experienced this many times. I suppose the basis of that argument depends on whether or not one believes the mind can 'trick' itself into believing one has certain ailments. Hypochondria. I believe it can. Stress is essentially a poison to the body, and if one loses control of their mental ability to keep certain emotions in check, it can have devastating affects. More medication or surgery isn't always the answer. I believe the main goal should be to minimize the pharmaceutical medication requirements as much as possible, because most medications severely change the way the body works, and not always in a good way. Of course one should do whatever is truly necessary, but I can say from a good bit of experience, most doctors over-medicate.

I firmly believe that more so-called "alternative" medicine techniques should be incorporated into the general health programs and treatments. That includes keeping the body loose, flexible, and properly aligned, and relieving concentrations of tight muscles and deposits, which acupuncture does very well. Not to mention those same things very often substantially reduce enormous pain. I couldn't imagine anyone walking out of a good acupuncture session, deep tissue massage, and chiropractic adjustment without feeling amazing. I don't see how it's possible, but everyone is different. Personally, I don't really differentiate those things from general aerobic fitness. It's not "alternative" to me, it's all simply part of a healthy lifestyle. Focus on staying healthy more than trying to get healthy once one is already sick.

Of course "alternative" methods are not a panacea. To suggest that is silly, just as it is to dismiss it is. It should be an integral part for many people though, and it's not encouraged enough.
StarrMax1
11 years ago


http://www.packersnews.com/article/20140620/PKR0101/140620018?nclick_check=1 

Pulled this from The newsfeed, saw no reason to start another thread, even though this one has kind of been sidetracked.

Dexter_Sinister
11 years ago

No, it was not.

Collins got kicked in the head and temporarily lost feeling in his extremeties. He got feeling back in a short time, but they scanned and found a "bulge" in a disc.

The doctors told him he needed surgery or they wouldn't clear him to play. I do not believe he needed that surgery. But once he had it, they refused to clear him anyway.

Originally Posted by: nerdmann 



MJS, ESPNMilwaukee, SI and some others reported it as a ruptured disk.

From what I understand, a Ruptured disk and Herniated disk are the same thing. Most of what I have read is that is was not just a bulge.

Some people use bulge and herniated interchangeably. But they aren't.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
DoddPower
11 years ago
Back on topic. Either way, this is truly sad. I thought this kid had a chance to be something special, even if just as a change of pace.

Does the rest of the league have the same number of career-ending injuries? The Packers seem to be piling them up the past several years. Although objectively, I guess it is just a few. Feels like more, though.
TheKanataThrilla
11 years ago
At the end of the day when the insurance company says "fuck you" the answer still is "sorry, no" regardless of what experimental treatment you want to try.
nerdmann
11 years ago

At the end of the day when the insurance company says "fuck you" the answer still is "sorry, no" regardless of what experimental treatment you want to try.

Originally Posted by: TheKanataThrilla 



It's interesting that they're being quite mum about the specifics, although they are saying it was an "injury," not a "condition."
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
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