DoddPower
12 years ago

This is why Mychal Kendricks was so high on my draft list. [grin1]

Good post.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



That guy is fast!! 4.47 forty, 4.19 20-yd shuffle, both top performances among MLB's. He was a nice pick at 46 overall, although he is only 5'11. The Eagles had a nice draft though. They have some serious talent on that team. It will be embarrassing for that coaching staff if they can't put it together on the field.

Zero2Cool
12 years ago

This is why Mychal Kendricks was so high on my draft list. [grin1]

Good post.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



You must have fricking loved Mike Sherman's draft picks. [duh]
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Dexter_Sinister
12 years ago

Eh, Bishop is more than serviceable in coverage when he doesn't have to cover forever. He's capable of sitting in zones being the underneath guy for a few seconds. But sure, leaving him out to dry with no pass rush is a horrible idea, just like it would be for Hawk, Smith, Manning, or any other LB on our team. We don't have a 'study' MLB that can play really well in space and is fast. Yet another reason why the pass rush is so important to this team. The Packer's MLB's are an obvious weakness but until we upgrade the position, we must hope the pass rush has an indirect positive effect on them (and I think it will). Either way, they're not going to be great in coverage. It's just not Hawk's or Bishop's game.

Originally Posted by: doddpower 



Hawk played in the exact same circumstances as Bishop and he was almost twice as effective in pass coverage.

And Hawk was only average.

That gives you some measure of how poor Bishop was in coverage. According to the pass metrics chart posted by Rashaan Salaami

week 13 pass D metrics 

Bishop allowed a 122.4 rating as of week 13. He missed the next 2 weeks with a calf injury and I didn't see an update posted that included the last 2 weeks of the year. But I doubt he improved much.

Hawk only allowed a 85.4 which is very near average.

Don't get me wrong. My only beef with Bishop is that he is too slow to cover a TE. Everything else I really like. His attitude, hard work, hustle, effort, nose for the ball etc. He is a good down hill kind of player.

But our biggest problem was pass coverage and our worst player in pass coverage was Bishop. If you want to fix the D, start with the biggest weakness. Because if I were scheming to beat the Packers, I would line up a TE over Bishop and run him away from help. Kind of like what the Chargers did to him. Pull the corner up in the flat with an out or curl, run a WR at the post and send Bishop's TE out past the flat in the hole.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
DoddPower
12 years ago
I don't think there's much denying our MLB's will get eaten up in man coverage of tight ends, especially the good ones. I simply hope that he's not asked to do that much. The Packer's are mostly a zone team now. As long as Bishop can stay underneath receivers/tight ends in the middle with help over the top, he will be OK. The reason the zones were stretched so far last year is due to the pathetic pass rush. The holes will be a lot tighter when the QB has less time to throw.

With that being said, I don't care if they both are replaced in nickle packages, because neither are good in coverage. I think Bishop was left out to dry too often last year, mostly a result of poor defensive scheme. I remember thinking several times "why in the hell is Bishop left one-on-one with a player he obviously cannot stop??!" It reminded me of Bob Sander's defensive strategy in the 2007 NFL Championship game. GIVE THE MAN SOME HELP!! Caper's has to do a better job of getting players in position to succeed. I understand he was handicapped last season due to lack of pass rush and poor communication, but some of those calls were inexcusable. It seemed that regardless of how many times Bishop was beaten, Caper's continued to allow it to happen. If it's truly that bad and there's NOTHING he could do about it scheme wise (I believe there was more he could have done), than put another guy out there. It's rough to watch a player struggle like that.

I'm obviously high on Manning, especially as an NC State guy. I'm going to continue to hope he develops quickly and can see the field sooner rather than later, at least on passing downs.
Dexter_Sinister
12 years ago

I don't think there's much denying our MLB's will get eaten up in man coverage of tight ends, especially the good ones. I simply hope that he's not asked to do that much. The Packer's are mostly a zone team now. As long as Bishop can stay underneath receivers/tight ends in the middle with help over the top, he will be OK. The reason the zones were stretched so far last year is due to the pathetic pass rush. The holes will be a lot tighter when the QB has less time to throw.

With that being said, I don't care if they both are replaced in nickle packages, because neither are good in coverage. I think Bishop was left out to dry too often last year, mostly a result of poor defensive scheme. I remember thinking several times "why in the hell is Bishop left one-on-one with a player he obviously cannot stop??!" It reminded me of Bob Sander's defensive strategy in the 2007 NFL Championship game. GIVE THE MAN SOME HELP!! Caper's has to do a better job of getting players in position to succeed. I understand he was handicapped last season due to lack of pass rush and poor communication, but some of those calls were inexcusable. It seemed that regardless of how many times Bishop was beaten, Caper's continued to allow it to happen. If it's truly that bad and there's NOTHING he could do about it scheme wise (I believe there was more he could have done), than put another guy out there. It's rough to watch a player struggle like that.

I'm obviously high on Manning, especially as an NC State guy. I'm going to continue to hope he develops quickly and can see the field sooner rather than later, at least on passing downs.

Originally Posted by: doddpower 



First, you should see my post on the much maligned Packer D. I don't agree with most on how bad the Packer's D was. 3 net points average in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd quarters. Then an average of 8 were given up in the 4th quarters with an average 18 point lead. The worst thing about our D is they played with a huge lead too often. Stops were not as important as burning clock.

Second, Bishop is in there for all the other things he brings. However, I would like to see him not being in coverage.

The whole point of the thread is, would Manning take Hawks place.

Why would they leave Bishop in to screw up our coverage and take Hawk out?

Even if Manning is better than Hawk, you get an even bigger improvement replacing Bishop.




I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
DoddPower
12 years ago

First, you should see my post on the much maligned Packer D. I don't agree with most on how bad the Packer's D was. 3 net points average in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd quarters. Then an average of 8 were given up in the 4th quarters with an average 18 point lead. The worst thing about our D is they played with a huge lead too often. Stops were not as important as burning clock.

Second, Bishop is in there for all the other things he brings. However, I would like to see him not being in coverage.

The whole point of the thread is, would Manning take Hawks place.

Why would they leave Bishop in to screw up our coverage and take Hawk out?

Even if Manning is better than Hawk, you get an even bigger improvement replacing Bishop.



Originally Posted by: Dexter_Sinister 



I understand your perspective but still disagree. This defense was horrible and I don't need to dig into the stats to try to convince myself otherwise. If the defense was not capable of stopping teams just because they had a big lead, then that makes them a bad defense, in my opinion. I can't imagine Caper's or any defensive player thinking "Let's just make them burn the clock" especially considering how often huge plays and quick scores were given up. Also, all of the "risk taking" and gambling for interceptions kind of goes against that argument as well. The defense was desperate for a stop however they could get it. Any intelligent coach should take their chances with Aaron Rodger's on the field to either score more points or burn the clock (or both) rather than hope a bad defense will burn some time (despite repeated failure to do so). I definitely can't buy that argument.

As my post said earlier, I wouldn't mind both of them being replaced. I also described my belief that Caper's left Bishop out to dry with his defensive calls making his stats look even worse. I watched every snap (like most here) and was really confused over some of the defensive calls. I saw Bishop in more one on one match up's, often in man coverage, than Hawk. I think Bishop is better up close to the line of scrimmage and playing small underneath zones in the middle of the field than Hawk. Having one player like that on the field in nickle packages is fine as long as the other players can do their job and cover. That's why I think replacing Hawk could be a better option, although it is splitting hairs. Both are bad, but more scheme adjustments could be made to compensate. I've seen Hawk burned continually over the past several years in coverage which likely makes me minimize the significance of some of the defenders stats last year in what I'm hoping was an anomaly season. I saw more 'hope' and/or potential in Bishop in the 2010 season than Hawk in coverage. So much like the rest of the defense who generally played well prior to last season, I'm willing to give them a chance at redemption. Overall, I'm still rooting for Manning to get on the field no matter who he replaces.

Zero2Cool
12 years ago
I didn't know the top priority of a linebacker was coverage. Packers should dump all their linebackers and put safeties there instead as they can typically cover better than linebackers. 😉
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DoddPower
12 years ago

I didn't know the top priority of a linebacker was coverage. Packers should dump all their linebackers and put safeties there instead as they can typically cover better than linebackers. ;)

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Well, to be fair, I'm exclusively speaking of sub-packages (nickle, dime, etc.) in my posts in this thread. I actually don't have a big problem even with Hawk in base 3-4 alignments, especially if the defense is getting good defensive line play. I think the thread has generally got off track because I don't think it's premise was specifically discussing coverage skills on the linebackers (but I was). 🇹🇹 + 🇲🇲 =🇦🇷


See, I can do math!
Zero2Cool
12 years ago
I think Bishop is clearly the better inside linebacker on the Packers roster, even if he can't cover Adrian Peterson in the flat. He's a good tackler and brings it. 2010 season, when Nick Barnett went down with an injury and Bishop filled in, the defense just looked 'tougher'. I'll take a guy who is good tackler over someone who is good in coverage. A blend of Brandon Chillar and Desmond Bishop would be neat too.
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PackerTraxx
12 years ago
We could have had two all pro LBs and they would have consistently gotten beat with the time opposing QBs had to pass. Even the great ones will have trouble covering for 5,6,7 seconds and more. If Manning can beat someone out...great...that means we have improved the position. But I wouldn't bet on it.
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