zombieslayer
13 years ago

What the hell I am still here dammit [boxing]

Originally Posted by: dhazer 



Glad you're still here.

On the other extreme, there are some who believe 🇹🇹 can do no wrong.

Looking back historically, I rank 🇹🇹 in the top 10 GMs today. I may be a minority here, but I actually like 🇲🇲 more than 🇹🇹 and attribute more of our success to 🇲🇲. Yeah I know, one could argue that 🇹🇹 hired 🇲🇲 so he should get credit. But that argument doesn't fly with me because it would be like the guy who hired me taking credit for my work.

🇲🇲 I rank as one of the top 3 coaches today.
My man Donald Driver
UserPostedImage
(thanks to Pack93z for the pic)
2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
+1
DakotaT
13 years ago

What the hell I am still here dammit [boxing]

Originally Posted by: dhazer 



Yeah, but you go into hiding for months at a time.

UserPostedImage
play2win
13 years ago

Glad you're still here.

On the other extreme, there are some who believe 🇹🇹 can do no wrong.

Looking back historically, I rank 🇹🇹 in the top 10 GMs today. I may be a minority here, but I actually like 🇲🇲 more than 🇹🇹 and attribute more of our success to 🇲🇲. Yeah I know, one could argue that 🇹🇹 hired 🇲🇲 so he should get credit. But that argument doesn't fly with me because it would be like the guy who hired me taking credit for my work.

🇲🇲 I rank as one of the top 3 coaches today.

Originally Posted by: zombieslayer 



In the past I'd have to say I leaned more towards supporting the guy, but holy crap, has he made some bad moves. I kind of knew immediately, when he let Jenkins walk, that we wouldn't win back to back SBs last year. I absolutely hated that move. The Harrell video is pretty funny, but yeah, who the hell was he? Really poor R1 choice, and he was no replacement for Corey Williams, who he also let walk, and never replaced until how many years later? I know WIlliams wasn't the best, but he was pretty freaking good for us back then.

I think he totally whiffed on Flynn, letting him go for zip, when he could have been traded for something. If Rodgers goes down, yeah, we need a backup, but we all pretty much know we would be done. Get something for those guys you develop Ted! Ron Wolf should have taught you that one. Another missed opportunity.

We were so very WR heavy last year, and we did nothing to add a DE/OLB before last year's trading deadline.

His overall philosophy was on point, and because of our insane depth, we won it all in 2010. Trouble is, to me, we had no business repeating as youngest team in the NFL last year. He seems too rigid on holding to one philosophy. If anything, last season, we should have loaded in a couple more vets on DL/OLB to leave all doubt behind that we were definitely going for 2 in a row...

It is revisionist history, but I would have been happier seeing him shoot for a couple SBs in a row, rather than sticking to adding, again, to the underside of our roster.

He could be making a dynasty here... and he still might be, using his own map to get us there. Sometimes that is tough for me to see, sticking to one philosophy. His team is evolving, and I think he would be prudent in evolving along with it to give it the best chance for success.
Zero2Cool
13 years ago
Cullen Jenkins chose to leave.
Matt Flynn, there was no intelligent way to retain him and if you second guess that do some salary cap research.
You don't trade your strength making it a weakness to help another position. What if the DE acquired gets injured? then you're short on WR and DE. Unwarranted risk.

Ted Thompson is a General Manager, not God.

It is tough for us to see the plan because well that's by design. There's a lot more to acquiring players and simply saying hey you sign with us! They have to want to and they have to fit into the scheme and all that jazz.

Ted Thompson doesn't mortgage the Packers future and that's his biggest asset to the Packers franchise.
UserPostedImage
play2win
13 years ago

Cullen Jenkins chose to leave.
Matt Flynn, there was no intelligent way to retain him and if you second guess that do some salary cap research.
You don't trade your strength making it a weakness to help another position. What if the DE acquired gets injured? then you're short on WR and DE. Unwarranted risk.

Ted Thompson is a General Manager, not God.

It is tough for us to see the plan because well that's by design. There's a lot more to acquiring players and simply saying hey you sign with us! They have to want to and they have to fit into the scheme and all that jazz.

Ted Thompson doesn't mortgage the Packers future and that's his biggest asset to the Packers franchise.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



You can say Jenkins chose to leave, but I do believe the message was sent that they were not going to bring him back. GB could have been way more proactive in staying on top of what was being offered, and sending a message that they may match in order to keep him. I don't believe they did that.

Retain Flynn? No. I wasn't for those ideas of signing and trading this offseason. Would have been foolish risk and didn't seem smart nor likely.

I think the window to trade him was missed last year, before the trade deadline. Flynn could have been dealt as could have one of our 5 WRs, most namely Jones. Neither would have created a insurmountable void or weakness IMO, and we had a giant gaping hole on the right side of our defense that really needed to be addressed.

Totally agree, this is not a science, and Ted is not a god. Super tough decisions, and no GM is always right. Ted has done pretty well for the most part. I did mention the whole nature of these discussions really are revisionist, but it is kind of fun to see what might have been.
earthquake
13 years ago

Flynn could have been dealt as could have one of our 5 WRs, most namely Jones. Neither would have created a insurmountable void or weakness IMO, and we had a giant gaping hole on the right side of our defense that really needed to be addressed.

Originally Posted by: play2win 



Again, why would anyone have traded for James Jones? He was an unrestricted free agent and any interested team could have signed him for a reasonable contract if they so desired. Maybe trade him for a 7th round pick? Surely he's worth more than that to the packers as evident by the fact that they gave him a 3 year contract.

What/who do you realistically expect they could have traded James Jones for?

Flynn... I'm sure if there was a decent trade offer that would have taken it. But again, who would have been willing to give up anything of substance for a backup qb with 1 start(at the time) who is about to be an unrestricted free agent? Then he went off and signed a below market contract as a FA. Again, maybe another 7th round pick for him?

So how do you propose Ted Thompson would have used 2 7th round picks to acquire a top-flight, or even competently good pass rusher? Did any team in the league trade away a quality pass rusher mid-season? Jarred Allen, fresh off of a couple DUI's and before he was really a superstar DE cost the vikings 2 2nd round picks.

I mean it would have been awesome if it happened, sure, but none of it adds up.
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play2win
13 years ago

Again, why would anyone have traded for James Jones? He was an unrestricted free agent and any interested team could have signed him for a reasonable contract if they so desired. Maybe trade him for a 7th round pick? Surely he's worth more than that to the packers as evident by the fact that they gave him a 3 year contract.

What/who do you realistically expect they could have traded James Jones for?

Originally Posted by: earthquake 



This is from prior to last season's trading deadline:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/835881-ten-possible-win-win-nfl-trades-to-make-before-the-deadline/page/3 

"James Jones, meanwhile, is an interesting case. Some feel he is the Packers second receiver as he did have 50 receptions last season. But it appeared that Rodgers developed a very strong chemistry with Jordy Nelson last year in the postseason. Donald Driver meanwhile never seems to get old.

If Jones were to be a fourth receiver, it makes a lot of sense to bring in a guy like Arenas. James Jones would be penciled in at No. 2 for the Chiefs, allowing Steve Breaston to become a very serious threat as a slot receiver."

You're valuing Jones = an R7? wow. Jones had already been signed to a very cap friendly deal. As for Flynn, I think he had more value after his showing 2010 v. NE, prior to the deadline 2011. Just my opinion.

I bet AZ would love a guy like this opposite Fitzgerald. I bet Miami would love a guy like this to be either a #1 or a #2 WR this year. I bet Seattle would love to have this guy to pair along with Flynn. I bet KC would love a guy like Jones too.

His cap friendly numbers add value as well, especially to teams looking to fill a lot of holes, or, say a team like BUF who already has filled a bunch, and is looking for affordable quality WR help to finish out their roster, on the cheap.

The idea of trading Jones along with picks could really net us some of that pass rush help we desperately need.

And, I like Jones. I don't want to trade him. But I would rather do that if it means we add legit pass rush.
earthquake
13 years ago

This is from prior to last season's trading deadline:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/835881-ten-possible-win-win-nfl-trades-to-make-before-the-deadline/page/3 

"James Jones, meanwhile, is an interesting case. Some feel he is the Packers second receiver as he did have 50 receptions last season. But it appeared that Rodgers developed a very strong chemistry with Jordy Nelson last year in the postseason. Donald Driver meanwhile never seems to get old.

If Jones were to be a fourth receiver, it makes a lot of sense to bring in a guy like Arenas. James Jones would be penciled in at No. 2 for the Chiefs, allowing Steve Breaston to become a very serious threat as a slot receiver."

You're valuing Jones = an R7? wow. Jones had already been signed to a very cap friendly deal. As for Flynn, I think he had more value after his showing 2010 v. NE, prior to the deadline 2011. Just my opinion.

I bet AZ would love a guy like this opposite Fitzgerald. I bet Miami would love a guy like this to be either a #1 or a #2 WR this year. I bet Seattle would love to have this guy to pair along with Flynn. I bet KC would love a guy like Jones too.

His cap friendly numbers add value as well, especially to teams looking to fill a lot of holes, or, say a team like BUF who already has filled a bunch, and is looking for affordable quality WR help to finish out their roster, on the cheap.

The idea of trading Jones along with picks could really net us some of that pass rush help we desperately need.

And, I like Jones. I don't want to trade him. But I would rather do that if it means we add legit pass rush.

Originally Posted by: play2win 



You're missing some very basic logic here, if all these teams love him why didn't anyone sign him to a contract when he was a FA? All of the teams you mention could have used a WR before last season as much as they do before this season. So clearly you're overvaluing him, if he had huge value, some team would have went out and signed him.

He was an unrestricted free agent and got virtually no interest on the open market, why give up draft picks for him? It makes no sense.

I like the guy too, and I think he has a lot more value to the packers as a #3/4 WR than he does to any other team, as evident by the fact that no other team in the league gave him a competitive contract offer.


And why would the chiefs have given up a 2nd year, 2nd round player for a guy they could have signed as an unrestricted free agent? Was Javier Arenas traded last season? Was there any reason to even believe he was available? No, just some hack journalist thinking it would be interesting enough to generate page views, so he put it on the internet. No substance.
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play2win
13 years ago
earthquake, we can agree to disagree. That's fine.

I think he has more value than some do here. Figure, the guy is only a #3WR due to the insane talent ahead of him in Jennings and Nelson. Otherwise, we'd be talking about trading away our #2WR, and I doubt highly we'd even be having this discussion. You don't think other teams see that? I sure do. James Jones could start on all of those teams as a legit #2WR, some he might even be able to fight for the #1WR slot.

Doug Baldwin was SEA's top WR last season. Jones had nearly twice as many TDs, and close to the same yds with 12 less receptions.

Davone Bess was MIA's #2 WR last year. Jones had more than double his TDs and had more yds with 12 less receptions.

Early Doucet was AZ's #2 WR last year. Jones had more TDs and about equal yds with 15 fewer receptions.

Mike Williams was TB's #1WR last year. Jones had more than double his TDs.

Steve Johnson was BUF's #1 WR last year. Jones had the same TD totals (7) in nearly half the receptions.

It was not hard to find 5 #1 and #2 WRs for 5 different teams where Jones had better production in fewer attempts. There's some substance for ya... eh!
earthquake
13 years ago
So why didn't any of those teams go after JJ when he was a FA, or before the trade deadline?

You can't force a team to trade for a player, they have to actually want the player. This isn't Madden, you can't just load up what you think is good value and force the team to make the trade.
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