zombieslayer
13 years ago

Deion would not have been a HOF player without the return skills in addition to his coverage skills... without the return skills he is Nnamdi Asomugha, a hell of a player but not considered iconic like Urlacher is painted at times.

Even then.. I think Deion the corner was a bit overrated as well. I used to hear Madden blabber about how he took half the field away.. which was the case against average receivers, however you put a top tier receiver on him.. you could beat him. He also didn't like flipping side of the field.. which allowed OC's to scheme away from him.

That said.. my point is, if you want to be the iconic player at a position, then IMO you have to be a complete player for your time period.

That maybe flawed.. but probably the reason I think we sometimes let too many players into the HOF.

Originally Posted by: Pack93z 



I'm taking this on another thread here as to not go off topic.

Yes, Deion was an excellent returner. No argument there whatsoever. However, in the middle of his career, there were 4 years where he wasn't a returner and he made 3 All Pros (and 3 Pro Bowls) in those 4 years. The year he didn't make All-Pro he was injured for half the year.

I've watched him too (I have his Falcons jersey as he was one of my fave players to watch) and saw QBs regularly throw away from him. He was so fast that he was always a threat to take one to the house and nothing pisses a QB off more than a pick six.

I'd strongly argue that even had Neon Deion not been a returner, he'd still have a spot in the Hall.

I do believe we let some players in the Hall who aren't worthy (Steve Largent and Art Monk immediately come to mind), but Sanders isn't one of them, even if you took away his returns. He's had 9 pick six's in his career, despite not having that many balls thrown in his direction. Yes, Woodson has had 10 but to be fair, Woodson will play any position and surprise surprise, when you thought Woodson was on another guy, he just switched over to the guy you threw at. Whoops. QBs didn't make that mistake with Sanders.
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Packers_Finland
13 years ago
I agree with zombieslayer. The second best CB of all time should definitely be in the HOF (second only to the Night Train).
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Greg C.
13 years ago
I'm with Zombie on this one, in spite of the fact that I hated Deion. I guess a lot of this depends on memory, because the stats don't tell much of the story with defensive backs. My recollection is that Deion usually shut down the opponent's best receiver. Was I just buying into the hype? I don't think so. I didn't want to believe the hype, but time after time I had to admit that the guy was just really, really good. I think he would be a Hall of Famer even if he hadn't returned punts.

Pack93z makes an interesting comment about how for a player to be iconic, he should be a complete player at his position. He was referring more to Urlacher there, but I've heard a similar criticism of Deion because he was poor in run support. I think most of the great players are well-rounded, but I do think it's possible for a player to be considered an all-time great in spite of being average or even deficient in some areas. An easy example would be Barry Sanders--not a power runner and not a particularly good blocker, but definitely one of the all-time great RBs.

Talent comes in strange packages sometimes. There are many examples of geniuses who had very specific talents and had shortcomings in other areas. I would agree that in football there is great value in being well-rounded, so that opponents cannot exploit one's weaknesses, but it's a team sport and that's what teammates are for. Because Deion could shut down the opponent's best receiver, he didn't need to be good at run support. His teammates could do that for him, and the trade-off was very much to his team's benefit.

It's similar with Urlacher. He's not strong at the point of attack, but the Bears have been very happy to surround him with stout defenders so he can roam the field and make plays. Asking him to be a traditional MLB would be a waste of his talents. I don't think of Urlacher as an all-time great MLB (it seems a little early to consider that possibility anyway), but I do think he is one of the best of his era.
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DakotaT
13 years ago
No defensive player who is afraid to tackle belongs in the hallowed halls of Canton. No player who was busted using drugs on multiple occassions and has just as much notoriety in the courtroom as on the football field belongs in the hallowed halls of Canton (LT and Sniffles Irvin).

That is a sacred place and character should play a very large part in the selection process. I think a member should be able to be kicked out as well, OJ. Has baseball let its all time leading hits man in their hall yet?

Deion did some great things on the field but there is no way around this one - he was a pussy in he-man sport.
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Packers_Finland
13 years ago

No defensive player who is afraid to tackle belongs in the hallowed halls of Canton.

*Snip*

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



You know this how? Knowing what kind of a person Deion is, at least in the media, it's very likely he just didn't want to tackle. And I think people only think this because he didn't make a lot of tackles during his career, which plays right into the fact he was never near the ball, because no one threw near him.

And as for "who belongs in the hall", no, it's not reserved for guys who fit the mold a player you feel is honorable, and whatnot. The hall of fame should enshrine the BEST PLAYERS and if you claim Deion Sanders is not one of the best cornerbacks (if not defensive players) of all time, then you need to go watch some film.
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DakotaT
13 years ago
Our opinions will just have to disagree on this Finny.

When the Matador Darlene Sharpier makes it because of all his interceptions - they might as well just close the doors.
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dhazer
13 years ago

No defensive player who is afraid to tackle belongs in the hallowed halls of Canton. No player who was busted using drugs on multiple occassions and has just as much notoriety in the courtroom as on the football field belongs in the hallowed halls of Canton (LT and Sniffles Irvin).

That is a sacred place and character should play a very large part in the selection process. I think a member should be able to be kicked out as well, OJ. Has baseball let its all time leading hits man in their hall yet?

Deion did some great things on the field but there is no way around this one - he was a pussy in he-man sport.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 




Dakota how can you call him a pussy? Is it because he didn't have a lot of tackles, well how many cornerbacks would go back and return punts? I really don't think you can be a pussy and return punts. Lets see you have guys running full speed at you and your looking up in the air at the ball. You may not like his glam but you can't take away what he did on the field, he changed the game forever. I saw PackZ say he wouldn't switch sides of the field but that is totally wrong he would take the other teams best wr and pretty much take them out of the game. And we really can't go by stats anymore because if that was the case 75% of the qbs in this era would have to be in the hall of fame, in the 70's and 80's throwing for 4000 yards was unheard of except for Marino and these days its a common thing.

Just Imagine this for the next 6-9 years. What a ride it will be 🙂 (PS, Zero should charge for this)
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DakotaT
13 years ago

Dakota how can you call him a pussy? Is it because he didn't have a lot of tackles, well how many cornerbacks would go back and return punts? I really don't think you can be a pussy and return punts. Lets see you have guys running full speed at you and your looking up in the air at the ball. You may not like his glam but you can't take away what he did on the field, he changed the game forever. I saw PackZ say he wouldn't switch sides of the field but that is totally wrong he would take the other teams best wr and pretty much take them out of the game. And we really can't go by stats anymore because if that was the case 75% of the qbs in this era would have to be in the hall of fame, in the 70's and 80's throwing for 4000 yards was unheard of except for Marino and these days its a common thing.

Originally Posted by: dhazer 




He's a pussy because he avoided contact to save himself from injury. Even on his punt returns, if it wasn't there, it was either go out of bounds or down like a $2 whore. I'm not saying he wasn't as talented as everyone else says he is, he just avoided contact. In my feeble mind, that's enough to keep him out of Mecca.
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Dexter_Sinister
13 years ago

He's a pussy because he avoided contact to save himself from injury. Even on his punt returns, if it wasn't there, it was either go out of bounds or down like a $2 whore. I'm not saying he wasn't as talented as everyone else says he is, he just avoided contact. In my feeble mind, that's enough to keep him out of Mecca.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 


Why waste his speed? He wasn't a nose tackle. He was a skinny little corner back with incredible speed.

Getting pounded like that $2 whore wouldn't serve any purpose. Blazing fast did. He had so much speed that even if you burned him, he could make up for it and close the gap before the ball got there. He wasn't going to beat anybody up, but he could run circles around any body who would.

You don't get any extra points for hurting people. You get points for getting the ball across the goal line. Sanders was very good at that. He was also good at stopping WRs from doing the same.




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Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
Pack93z
13 years ago
Without the returns.. yeah he probably still gets in (bit overboard there on my part), but that is a subjective argument at best.

On his current pace.. Nnamdi has no business being in the HOF. Create cover guy.. and without the flash of the returns (both punt and interception) I don't know that PrimeTime ever becomes PrimeTime.

Again.. he was a superb cover corner on average NFL talent.. but could be had against the elites of the time. Especially physical receivers.

Deon had a combination of elite speed and excellent ball skills when it was in the air.. so he could mask some of the mistakes he made in coverage.. or where he would get beat. Yes he more than likely was the best of his era.. and he redefined the flash of the position and the flare of returns.. and there is no doubt he belongs in the hall.

But I still challenge without that flash and return.. would he be in the hall? Debatable at best.

I will throw some other names out there that are not in the hall but we dominate cover corners.

(Note guys I could think of that played post 80's (rules became geared towards the offense) and I don't believe they are currently in the hall. Guys that could flat out cover a receiver. )

Gill Byrd

Cris Dishman

Louis Wright

Everson Walls

Hanford Dixon and Frank Minnifield (One of my all time favorite pair of corners)

Lester Hayes

Eric Allen

Aeneas Williams

Albert Lewis (I think Rice choose him as his toughest opponent)
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