Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
Drinking, England, and guns.

[I'd like to follow up on what Dulak (who I somewhat disagree with), and Nonstop and Cheesey (who I somewhat agree with), but I think we're going off topic pretty substantially. So, Kevin or whoever else can do this, feel free to move what I'm about to say to another thread. Because I'm going to go on at length, and I don't expect to say anything about the original story other than to remark that California will never have a shortage of fruits and nuts.]

To start with, an admission of two biases: I hate gun control and I love Great Britain.

Bias #1: I hate gun control because I believe that it isn't guns that cause problems, its the people who decide to pull triggers when they pull them. And I hate it even more because I trust the state not at all, and widespread gun ownership provides a necessary check upon the use of state power by tyrants individual and majoritarian.

Bias #2: I love so many things British it will drive zombieslayer and dfosterf nuts. Steak and kidney pie. Bangers and mash. Fish and chips. Whisky without an e, and real ale pumped the old fashioned way. Imperial pints and chicken tikka. Hampstead Heath and Kew Gardens. The tube and the railways. The Scottish Highlands, the University of Durham, and the Pavilion at Brighton. Loch Ness and Urquhart Castle. Stonehenge, the Tate, and the BM. The Yeoman Warders. Doner kebabs and Charing Cross booksellers. A good bookshop in every town. Castles. The best whisky shop in the world....in a town of a few thousand. Something like 400 distilleries in an area the size of Vermont. London. Monty Python. Benny Hill. Inspector Morse and Inspector Frost. Doctor Who and Blake's Seven.

The Oxbridge tutorial system. Newman and the Arnolds. The Industrial Revolution. Guy Fawkes. Thomas Becket and Thomas More, Virginia Woolf and Philip Larkin. The Great Reform Bills. Pitt AND Fox. Thomas Paine AND Edmund Burke. Gladstone AND Disraeli.

The Inklings.

And the everyday people. Friends from Southwick to Bute, Chester to Bradford to Durham. Plummy accents and Cockney ones. Nobs and snobs. Conversations in a hundred pubs, and a dozen churches.

I could go on, but I think the biases are clear enough. :)

Because IMO much as I love Britain, I would not recommend social/political organization on the British model to anyone.

Everything in Britain is corrupted by seemingly unremovable class divisions. Class and ethnic divisions exist in this country, yes, but they are *nothing* like the divisions that exist in Britain. Deep divisions.

Though much of that depth is hidden, like the entwined rhizomes of your lawn's grass or a bamboo patch. Partly because of an emphasis on reservedness and privacy that crosses all classes (I've found even most of those labelled "yobs" are amazingly polite toward strangers), its sometimes hard to see all the places where class divides the people of Britain. And the same for ethnic divisions between Scots and English, between Welsh and English, between all the different post-colonial immigrants and the old Anglo-Saxon and Norman English.

But those divisions are real, deep, and in many cases utterly determinative of choices and opportunities. (IMO, only division-of-opportunity in the USA that is anywhere near that deep is that between urban blacks and the rest of us. And even that division is far more brittle than the British class system.)

The "generations on the dole" phenomenon has been widespread in the UK for several generations now. But it's something we're really only just now starting to see in any numbers here, and primary in particular sections of the inner cities.

This is not to make light of its happening now in the United States; only to point out that Britain has been dealing with -- or failing to deal with -- the problem for several generations now.

If I were living in a country where the dole had been a way of life for significant numbers of people since WWII (and for some, a generation or so more even than that), a country where restrictions on mobility were no less than they had been for the lifetime of everyone living, I'd not want an armed populace either.

And add to the lack of social mobility all the other impedimentia of the country that for all purposes was the pioneer of useless welfare state institutions of "cradle-to-grave" safety ... no, I wouldn't model my social institutions on theirs.

Even one institution which I consider among Britain's two greatest social innovations -- the Oxbridge tutorial system of higher education -- I would hesitate to import. That system only works to the extent that you only need 3-5 percent of the population with that kind of education; in a world like today's, where you need to find ways to get that kind of education in the hands of 50-50 percent of the population, the Oxbridge approach just reinforces differences you want to break down.

There are two separate kinds of violence you have to worry about with young people today. Call one "Inner City" and call the other "Columbine."

The inner city one -- that's the one that should worry everyone. Because that one is the problem of revolution. That's the one of 40 percent (or more) male unemployment. The one of generations on welfare. The one that has been promised better for generations -- and still seen worse every year. To my mind, the historical question is not why the Watts riots of 1964 and 1992 happened....but why they haven't happened more often.

If I were a statist sort who had to come up with an argument for gun control, I would point to the inner city problem and use it as my primary justification. Of course I'd also have to be willing to deprive people of basic freedom on racial lines: because, to my mind, you can't make this argument unless you are willing to say that it's too dangerous to let disenchanted young black men keep and bear arms the way everyone else can.

(Frankly this sort of thinking appalls me so much, I hope no statist types are monitoring this board. The last thing I want to encourage is this sort of thinking. But the only argument for gun control, it seems to me, the only one that holds any water at all, is one that admits that the danger of an armed population is the danger of insurrection.)

Columbine on the other hand? Tragedy, yes. But evidence of a need for gun control? Absolutely not.

Suburban high schools are not places of potential revolution. They are places of conformity and privilege. People who go on rampages from places like Columbine are individuals. Individuals who don't fit. Who don't identify with the people they are shooting and blowing up.

Columbines happen when individuals snap. When individuals are insane. When individuals are evil. When individuals feel themselves so badly fucked over.

The key word is "individuals".

Revolutions go nowhere if they are just individuals.

The reason "inner city" is a bigger danger than "Columbine" is that the inner city -- like the streets of the East End in London -- offers far more fertile ground for combining groups of people in revolution.

Imagining a revolution happening in the suburbs is as laughable an idea as imagining one happening in rural Iowa. Suburbans are whiners and complainers about self-esteem. They join movements like they join churches and softball leagues. They revolt by dressing in black and wearing designer body piercings. Changing the world means getting a job for a socially respectable employer.

Guns are a systematic danger only if there is a danger of revolution. Frankly, I don't think Britain has a whole lot to worry about revolution either; but they have far more to worry about it than we do. Because the proportion of "inner city/yobs/lower classes" is far bigger, and far more immobile, and has been for far longer, than ours.

Our biggest danger is not our guns. Its the fact that we're letting the whiners have too much say. (Dakota, if he's read this far, will doubtless be shocked to hear a whiner like me admit this, but he's right.) Because the more we let the whiners control the political and social agenda -- the more we worry about political correctness and being sustainable and being nicey nicey, the more we emulate the worst part of the Brit system. The more immobile we make the divisions between the haves and the true have-nots, the more we make "opportunity" a generations-long unkept promise, the more those have-nots are likely to realize that revolution is their only option.

And, because, unlike today's British yobs, and, especially, unlike the revolutionists of 1776, those potential revolutionaries from our "inner city" are not going to revolt in the way Washington, Jefferson, Adams, and the others did. They're going to revolt like the French did.

And for those of you who don't know your history, and think French idiocy is defined by the silliness of the last couple decades, check out what they did to themselves between 1789 and 1848.

England has a lot to love about it. I really think it does.

But I also think has done even more to fuck itself than we have.

Magna Cart and the common law. Yes.

Real ale and single malt whiskey. Yes.

Commercial society and Adam Smith. Yes.

20th century political and social theory. Absolutely not.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago

Holy shit.

Hate to say it, but it's crap like this that makes me wish that the whole damn state would break off and sink into the Pacific. Sorry ZS, time to get the fuck outta dodge.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



California is the most beautiful place on earth. I can't help it that half the people here are fucking idiots. I've been to New Zealand and that's a close 2nd. Europe and Asia are too overpopulated to even be considered in the running.

I don't run away from fights. I'll fight to the very end. I'm learning that there are a lot of angry folks here who think like I do.

"Formo" wrote:



It's too bad that when the "big one" comes, and half of your state plunges into the Pacific, you can't find a way to keep the idiots on the west side. 🙂
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
zombieslayer
14 years ago



It's too bad that when the "big one" comes, and half of your state plunges into the Pacific, you can't find a way to keep the idiots on the west side. :)

"Wade" wrote:



The big one won't happen in my lifetime. It's just as likely that that big hole in Montana will erupt and kill 100 million people. That thing is a super volcano. I'm a lot more scared of that than earthquakes.

I've been through hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, and flash floods. I'll take an earthquake any day of the week over any of them.

As for your Britain love, :pukeright:
I'll hold back though. 😉
My man Donald Driver
UserPostedImage
(thanks to Pack93z for the pic)
2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
dfosterf
14 years ago
7-11 has a new Big Gulp size. I'm gonna go get one.
























.
UserPostedImage
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
If anyone had any doubt, Foster clearly is the Emperor of the Non Sequitur.

The rest of us are just pretenders.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
zombieslayer
14 years ago
Oops. Wyoming. It's the Yellowstone Caldera. That thing is way scarier than "the big one" California quake.
My man Donald Driver
UserPostedImage
(thanks to Pack93z for the pic)
2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
Fan Shout
Zero2Cool (2-Apr) : WR who said he'd break Xavier Worthy 40 time...and ran slower than you
Mucky Tundra (2-Apr) : Who?
Zero2Cool (2-Apr) : Texas’ WR Isaiah Bond is scheduled to visit the Bills, Browns, Chiefs, Falcons, Packers and Titans starting next week.
Zero2Cool (2-Apr) : Spotting ball isn't changing, only measuring distance is, Which wasn't the issue.
Zero2Cool (2-Apr) : The spotting of the ball IS the issue. Not the chain gang.
Mucky Tundra (2-Apr) : Will there be a tracker on the ball or something?
Zero2Cool (1-Apr) : uh oh
Martha Careful (1-Apr) : Too bad camera's can't spot the ball as well.
Mucky Tundra (1-Apr) : So will the chain gang be gone completely or will they still be around as a backup or whatever?
Zero2Cool (1-Apr) : The method for measuring first downs in the NFL will switch from chain gangs to camera-based technology in 2025, the league announced.
Martha Careful (1-Apr) : A big step in the right direction. Just put in the college system is very very good.
Zero2Cool (1-Apr) : NFL has passed a rule that allows both teams to possess the ball in OT during the regular season
Zero2Cool (1-Apr) : Touchbacks on kickoffs will now bring the ball to the 35-yard line.
beast (31-Mar) : It might of gotten more popular recently, but braiding hair (even men) in certain cultures goes back for centuries.
Martha Careful (30-Mar) : Is men braiding their hair a new style thing? Watching the NCAA men's tournament many players have done
Zero2Cool (29-Mar) : Ha. Well, it'd be nice for folks to reset their own password. Via validated email 😏
beast (29-Mar) : Monopoly was supposed to be an educational game, that show how evil capitalism was and how we should avoid it
beast (29-Mar) : Lol, I was thinking username would be better, as then I wouldn't have to keep an email up to date lol 😂
beast (29-Mar) : Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : I was thinking email because I think it'll make folks keep it up todate lol
wpr (29-Mar) : sure is
Zero2Cool (29-Mar) : Monopoly is a rip off of The Landlord's Game
wpr (27-Mar) : 28 days until the draft
earthquake (27-Mar) : Which seemed strange to my 9 year old self, that you could be a fan for a team other than the one you play for
earthquake (27-Mar) : Nothing eventful happened, other than it being clear that he was a bengals fan
earthquake (27-Mar) : And we went and hung out with him one afternoon, I must have been 9 or so
earthquake (27-Mar) : That’s wild, when I was a kid my friend lived in the same apartment complex in De Pere
Mucky Tundra (27-Mar) : Only career highspot was a 200 yard rushing game while playing for the Cardinals
Mucky Tundra (27-Mar) : He is a former Packer. Drafted out of Northern Illinois. Didn't do much in GB.
dfosterf (26-Mar) : Despicable
Zero2Cool (26-Mar) : Former NFL. I think Packers too
Zero2Cool (26-Mar) : NFL RB Leshon Johnson has been charged in a massive dog fighting operation, with the FBI seizing over 190 Pit Bulls
Mucky Tundra (26-Mar) : Some real irony of a QB as short as Wilson playing for the Giants
Mucky Tundra (26-Mar) : Giants country, let's be the tall beings of lore!
Mucky Tundra (26-Mar) : Russell Wilson signs with the Giants.
Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : I was thinking email because I think it'll make folks keep it up todate lol
wpr (25-Mar) : I don't think there is a significant difference. I use a user name for many. Others email.
Martha Careful (25-Mar) : email
Zero2Cool (25-Mar) : would it be better to use EMAIL or USERNAME to log into a site?
wpr (25-Mar) : Thanks Zero
Zero2Cool (24-Mar) : New forum has the ability to Thank a post now.
beast (24-Mar) : And the only time they have won the Championship in an even year, was the first time they did, in 2006.
beast (24-Mar) : Since 2007, there have been 10 odd numbered years, Wisconsin Women have won the Championship in 7 of those 10 odd numbered years.
buckeyepackfan (24-Mar) : Congratulations Lady Badger Hockey Team. NATIONAL CHAMPIONS!!
Zero2Cool (23-Mar) : I don't think it's completed yet. it was just announced last month, right?
dhazer (23-Mar) : did netflix ever release the Packers documentary
Zero2Cool (21-Mar) : And it is glorious!
beast (21-Mar) : Unsigned FA QB Rodgers is supposedly in the Steelers building
Martha Careful (19-Mar) : But I don't own a car! So can I still use it in my apartment?
Zero2Cool (19-Mar) : btw, new site auto updates
Zero2Cool (19-Mar) : Woohoo!
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2024 Packers Schedule
Friday, Sep 6 @ 7:15 PM
Eagles
Sunday, Sep 15 @ 12:00 PM
COLTS
Sunday, Sep 22 @ 12:00 PM
Titans
Sunday, Sep 29 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Sunday, Oct 6 @ 3:25 PM
Rams
Sunday, Oct 13 @ 12:00 PM
CARDINALS
Sunday, Oct 20 @ 12:00 PM
TEXANS
Sunday, Oct 27 @ 12:00 PM
Jaguars
Sunday, Nov 3 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Sunday, Nov 17 @ 12:00 PM
Bears
Sunday, Nov 24 @ 3:25 PM
49ERS
Thursday, Nov 28 @ 7:20 PM
DOLPHINS
Thursday, Dec 5 @ 7:15 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 15 @ 7:20 PM
Seahawks
Monday, Dec 23 @ 7:15 PM
SAINTS
Sunday, Dec 29 @ 3:25 PM
Vikings
Sunday, Jan 5 @ 12:00 PM
BEARS
Sunday, Jan 12 @ 3:30 PM
Eagles
Recent Topics
2-Apr / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

2-Apr / Green Bay Packers Talk / bboystyle

1-Apr / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

1-Apr / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

31-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

30-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

29-Mar / Random Babble / wpr

28-Mar / Feedback, Suggestions and Issues / dfosterf

28-Mar / Random Babble / Martha Careful

26-Mar / Random Babble / Mucky Tundra

25-Mar / Random Babble / Martha Careful

24-Mar / Random Babble / packerfanoutwest

24-Mar / Random Babble / Zero2Cool

21-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

19-Mar / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2025 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.