Zero2Cool
14 years ago
http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/11/15/california.airport.security/index.html?hpt=T2 

Los Angeles, California (CNN) -- In response to a video of a California man's dispute with airport security officials, the Transportation Security Administration said Monday it tries to be sensitive to individuals, but everyone getting on a flight must be screened.

The video, in which software engineer John Tyner refuses an X-ray scan at the San Diego, California, airport, has sparked a debate over screening procedures.

Tyner told CNN on Sunday that he was surprised to see so many people take an interest in his refusal and the dispute with airport screeners that followed it. But he said he hoped the video will focus attention on what he calls a government invasion of privacy.

"Obviously, everybody has their own perspective about their personal screening," TSA administrator John Pistole told CNN. "The question is, how do we best address those issues ... while providing the best possible security?"

Tyner, 31, said his hunting trip to South Dakota was cut short before it even started Saturday morning -- when TSA agents asked him to go through an X-ray machine.

"I don't think that the government has any business seeing me naked as a condition of traveling about the country," Tyner said.

Pistole said the agency is "trying to be sensitive to individuals issues and concerns," but added, "the bottom line is, everybody who gets on that flight has been properly screened."

The cell phone video Tyner recorded of his arguments with security screeners over the scan and pat-down they proposed had garnered more than 80,000 hits on YouTube by early Monday morning.

Tyner said that after he declined the body scan, a TSA agent told him he could have a pat-down instead. Once the procedure was described, Tyner said he responded, "If you touch my junk, I'll have you arrested."

The dispute that followed, Tyner said, included police escorting him from the screening area and a supervisor saying he could face a civil lawsuit for leaving the airport before security had finished screening him.

"The whole thing just seemed ridiculous. ... I don't intend to fly until these machines go away," he said.

"Advanced imaging technology screening is optional for all passengers," TSA said in a statement released Monday. "Passengers who opt out of [advanced imaging] screening will receive alternative screening, including a physical pat-down."

But anyone who refuses to complete the screening process will be denied access to airport secure areas and could be subject to civil penalties, the administration said, citing a federal appeals court ruling in support of the rule.

The ruling, from the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, says that "requiring that a potential passenger be allowed to revoke consent to an ongoing airport security search makes little sense in a post-9/11 world. Such a rule would afford terrorists multiple opportunities to attempt to penetrate airport security by 'electing not to fly' on the cusp of detection until a vulnerable portal is found."

The TSA's advanced imaging technology machines use two separate means of creating images of passengers -- backscatter X-ray technology and millimeter-wave technology.

At the end of October, 189 backscatter units and 152 millimeter-wave machines were in use in more than 65 airports. The total number of imaging machines is expected to be near 1,000 by the end of 2011, according to the TSA.

The agency has previously said that the new technology is safe and protects passenger privacy.

"Strict privacy safeguards are built into the foundation of TSA's use of advanced imaging technology to protect passenger privacy and ensure anonymity," the agency says in a statement on its website.

Images from the scans cannot be saved or printed, according to the agency. Facial features are blurred. And agents who directly interact with passengers do not see the scans.

iReporter: "Don't touch my junk" Tyner shouldn't fly

But Tyner isn't the only one with concerns about the new security procedures.

Grass-roots groups are urging travelers either not to fly or to protest by opting out of the full-body scanners and undergoing time-consuming pat-downs instead.

Industry leaders are worried about the backlash. Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano met with leaders of travel industry groups to discuss the concerns.

"We certainly understand the challenges that DHS confronts, but the question remains, where do we draw the line? Our country desperately needs a long-term vision for aviation security screening, rather than an endless reaction to yesterday's threat," the U.S. Travel Association said in a statement after the meeting. "At the same time, fundamental American values must be protected."



I don't really care much about it, but why so much security? Lock the cabin down so there's one way communication from the cabin to the staff. Make it known no matter how many passengers are killed, the plane won't divert and no one will be allowed in the cabin. Hell, make the cabin pressure locked while in air it can't be opened.

Something. There has to be a better way.
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zombieslayer
14 years ago
Ralph Nader said this years before 9/11 happened. Had we taken his advice, 9/11 would have never happened.

Now instead, we have the beginnings of a police state. What amazes me is that people would object if the government demanded nude pics of you yet they have no problem walking through this.

The TSA needs to be dismantled. Imagine the money we taxpayers would save.

Lock the cockpits and reinforce the door. There. Problem solved.
My man Donald Driver
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2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
Pack93z
14 years ago
For records sake.. a look back on the subject.

http://www.packershome.com/ForumsPro/viewtopic/t=9286/finish=20/start=120.html 

Middle of that page through the end of the thread.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
4PackGirl
14 years ago
i don't get what a locked, reinforced cockpit door will do when someone brings a bomb on a plane but maybe that's just me.

jfc - people are so damn prudish & oh so 'worried' about their rights, it's just sickening. if you don't want to get scanned, don't fly. trust me, nobody's in the back room trying to measure your manliness or lack thereof.

everybody wants it all, wants it now, & doesn't want to be inconvenienced. it's impossible!! so yes if i have to be scanned to fly so the chances of my being blown up, shot, or stabbed in midair are lower, so the hell be it.

can't wait to hear the responses to this one. lol.
Pack93z
14 years ago
[youtube]sUnRz139hmI[/youtube]
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Pack93z
14 years ago
I said this in the other thread.. and personally how I look upon the topic. That said, I do think the "body Imaging" is probably to far over the line... metal detector not as invasive. Hell we subject ourselves to scanners leaving stores as Best Buy and Target daily without much thought about it.. for something as petty theft being the root reason for the scan. Granted it isn't an X-ray scan.


An aircraft is one of the most delicate modes of transportation, and with the economy crunch I am not completely sold that the companies are keeping the aircraft as maintained as they should be.. stretching the limits of parts for budgetary reasons. Then add that fact that all a person really needs to do to severely jeopardize the flight is cause a breach in the cabin.. granted they won't be able to use it as was in 9/11.. but they still can cause what they want.. destruction and fear.

I see the amount of nut jobs in this world, people that either are so far gone that rational thought escapes them or they just have twisted intentions. This isn't the American society of 20 years ago.. heck it isn't the same as 10 years ago... I don't like it, I would rather go back, but reality is this is the society we live in.

Combine those ingredients and you have a recipe for high risk.. one in which I don't feel comfortable with going back to the minimal security we used to have.

And I really am not worried about foreign terrorists.. they are very isolated.. I am more concerned with the nut jobs from within. Those looking for their 15 minutes of fame or attention.

"Pack93z" wrote:


"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
Sorry, gotta disagree with you on this one, Julie. (Shawn doubtless remembers me disagreeing with him on the earlier thread. 🙂 )

On several overlapping grounds, among them:
1. Unreasonable search under 4th amendment.
2. Invasion of natural right of privacy.
3. Restriction of natural right to travel.
4. Patriot Act should have been held unconsitutional.
5. Fear doesn't stop terrorism, it encourages it.
6. TSA has regularly adopted procedures that don't work; we should believe them this time because...?
7. If you have to presume that the average traveller is a criminal, then you've already lost.
8. Threatening a civil lawsuit if you fail to go through the screening? On what grounds, pray tell?

Me, I applaud the guy for being an obnoxious shit and standing on his principles. I wish I had the guts to refuse to fly under such conditions.

Zombieslayer: in one way we are worse than a traditional police state. Our society's shared belief in "social contract" democracy means we give the interferers with liberty a legitimacy they never have in authoritarian or totalitarian regimes. We forget that the ability to withhold "consent of the governed" doesn't disappear just because a majority says otherwise.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
zombieslayer
14 years ago

Sorry, gotta disagree with you on this one, Julie. (Shawn doubtless remembers me disagreeing with him on the earlier thread. 🙂 )

On several overlapping grounds, among them:
1. Unreasonable search under 4th amendment.
2. Invasion of natural right of privacy.
3. Restriction of natural right to travel.
4. Patriot Act should have been held unconsitutional.
5. Fear doesn't stop terrorism, it encourages it.
6. TSA has regularly adopted procedures that don't work; we should believe them this time because...?
7. If you have to presume that the average traveller is a criminal, then you've already lost.
8. Threatening a civil lawsuit if you fail to go through the screening? On what grounds, pray tell?

Me, I applaud the guy for being an obnoxious shit and standing on his principles. I wish I had the guts to refuse to fly under such conditions.

Zombieslayer: in one way we are worse than a traditional police state. Our society's shared belief in "social contract" democracy means we give the interferers with liberty a legitimacy they never have in authoritarian or totalitarian regimes. We forget that the ability to withhold "consent of the governed" doesn't disappear just because a majority says otherwise.

"Wade" wrote:



+1 to Wade. Wade gets it.

I guess most Americans would make good slaves. Of course, tell them that they're free and the grass is greener over here while putting them in chains. But alas, I think I've said all I'm going to say on this subject. Sick of this one now too.

What's really sad is those commie Europeans get it. I've been reading what they have to say about American airport security on Slashdot and they get it, Americans don't. Yikes.

From an economic perspective, we're losing a lot of European tourism (yes, it matters) and that's not good for my stock investments. Plus, European chicks are more likely to take their tops off on my beaches.
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2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
Zero2Cool
14 years ago
A locked cabin prevents the plane from being flown into a freaking building!

This might sound cruel, but I'd rather have had someone blown up those planes, instead of them being used as WEAPONS to destroy the twin towers.

If we had four Flight 93's we'd still have the twin towers and (conspiracy theorists will disagree here, ahem, missile) the pentagon wouldn't have been damaged.

Flight 93 was crashed in a field, but if it had been blown up in mid air with the other planes, we'd have suffered far less causalities.

Locking the cabin down while in air, no exceptions, no possible way of opening the cabin is only a part of the solution. But I think a good start.

As I said, I don't care if someone wants to check out my manberries, (they'll need a damn scope to see'em anyhow), but I can see how many people despise it.
UserPostedImage
Pack93z
14 years ago

Sorry, gotta disagree with you on this one, Julie. (Shawn doubtless remembers me disagreeing with him on the earlier thread. 🙂 )

On several overlapping grounds, among them:
1. Unreasonable search under 4th amendment.
2. Invasion of natural right of privacy.
3. Restriction of natural right to travel.
4. Patriot Act should have been held unconsitutional.
5. Fear doesn't stop terrorism, it encourages it.
6. TSA has regularly adopted procedures that don't work; we should believe them this time because...?
7. If you have to presume that the average traveller is a criminal, then you've already lost.
8. Threatening a civil lawsuit if you fail to go through the screening? On what grounds, pray tell?

"Wade" wrote:



First.. your unrestricted travel is your right, but flying on commercial transportation is not a right. Your ability to purchase a seat freely is a right.. but you are then governed by their policies and regulations.

Personally the US government shouldn't be charged with the security, however they decided that since there are hubs with multiple airlines flying out of each and the importance of air transportation to our economy, they stuck their noses into it.

But I fail to see air travel as a right.. hence #1 has little governing authority.. if you want to fly, you have to follow their guidelines.

2. I will agree, that forcing someone to a "Xray" scan is taking it too far. But they are allowing a passenger to opt out..

3. See #1.. they are not restricting your travel.. just the conditions for this type of travel.

4. Certain parts I will agree to..

5. Is the TSA fear tactic or a method to dissolve it?

6. I would love to see a list of failed policies to counter the fact that it hasn't been repeated 9/11 event. To be fair, we can't decisively say that the TSA has prevented one either.

7. If I walk into Best Buy.. I have to pass through their scanners to exit.. so should I be offended that I was treated the same as a shoplifter? The method is not the same, but the principle of the TSA procedures are the same.. a preventative measure.

Same as the last thread, list an alternative measure than the TSA.

8. Here I agree.. a civil lawsuit.. that is utter bullshit.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
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dfosterf (26-Jun) : Fair enough, WPR. Thing is, I have been a long time advocate to at least have some inkling of the dynamics within the board.
wpr (26-Jun) : 1st world owners/stockholders problems dfosterf.
Martha Careful (25-Jun) : I would have otherwise admirably served
dfosterf (25-Jun) : Also, no more provision for a write-in candidate, so Martha is off the table at least for this year
dfosterf (25-Jun) : You do have to interpret the boring fine print, but all stockholders all see he is on the ballot
dfosterf (25-Jun) : It also says he is subject to another ballot in 2028. I recall nothing of this nature with Murphy
dfosterf (25-Jun) : Ed Policy is on my ballot subject to me penciling him in as a no.
dfosterf (25-Jun) : I thought it used to be we voted for the whatever they called the 45, and then they voted for the seven, and then they voted for Mark Murphy
dfosterf (25-Jun) : Because I was too lazy to change my address, I haven't voted fot years until this year
dfosterf (25-Jun) : of the folks that run this team. I do not recall Mark Murphy being subject to our vote.
dfosterf (25-Jun) : Ed Policy yay or nay is on the pre-approved ballot that we always approve because we are uninformed and lazy, along with all the rest
dfosterf (25-Jun) : Weird question. Very esoteric. For stockholders. Also lengthy. Sorry. Offseason.
Zero2Cool (25-Jun) : Maybe wicked wind chill made it worse?
Mucky Tundra (25-Jun) : And then he signs with Cleveland in the offseason
Mucky Tundra (25-Jun) : @SharpFootball WR Diontae Johnson just admitted he refused to enter a game in 41° weather last year in Baltimore because he felt “ice cold”
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Mucky Tundra (20-Jun) : GB-Minnesota 2004 Wild Card game popped up on my YouTube page....UGH
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Mucky Tundra (19-Jun) : One person on Twitter=cannon law
Zero2Cool (19-Jun) : Well, to ONE person on Tweeter
Zero2Cool (19-Jun) : According to Tweeter
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Zero2Cool (18-Jun) : one year $4m with incentives to make it up to $6m
dfosterf (18-Jun) : Or Lions
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dfosterf (14-Jun) : TWO magnificent strikes for touchdowns. Lose the pennstate semigeezer non nfl backup
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dfosterf (11-Jun) : There will be a mini camp practice Thursday.
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Martha Careful (10-Jun) : We only do the tea before whoopee, it relaxes me.
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