Pack93z
14 years ago



IMO, if Patrick Henry and Tom Paine and Sam Adams heard the rationalizations we give to ourselves in the name of safety, they'd shake their heads with disgust...and double their orders of tar and feathers.

I'm not advocating such.

"Wade" wrote:



Agreed.. they would.

Just as they would shake their heads are many things in this country, such as air travel itself.

This country and the world have changed greatly since they helped pen our freedoms.

One thing I am certain they would shake they head upon is the lack of penalties for those that violate the constitution, those that wish to harm this country and any of its citizens. Those whose actions drive these infringes in life.

Terrorists are the least of my worries in this life, there is only so much we as a country can do about it since they for the most part reside outside of your countries boarders.

I am more worried about those that reside inside of this country and the motives that drive them. Basically there are those in this country that don't see us as an enemy like a terrorist does, they are just in it for themselves and their personal agenda.

They are unpredictable and are far harder to detect in life. If a terrorist is going to take down a plane, they are going to plan it out, plot and set it up for years and regardless of what measures we have in will find a way around it.

It will depend upon those in the fray to minimize the damage than any measure the TSA puts into place. Much like the actions on Flight 93.

But it is the lone wolf types that lurk in the shadows of this country that concern me much more than any terrorist. Those are the cats that make me reluctant to allow unchecked access to our airlines of the country..

Those types aren't chasing rabbits, we have little idea what they chase in their minds.

For as well as our airliners are designed, they are still too fragile to allow folks to freely carry a weapon of choice upon the flights.

Now onto the search and seizure points to your post.

A cop cannot pull you over to randomly check your trunk, however if they pull your over for another violation of some sort, and have a reasonable reason (judgment call by a lone entity) cause they certainly can and will search your vehicle. Probably cause.

Now pre-scanners they same principles were put into place, you walked through a metal detector and if your set it off, probable cause was established for a more detailed search of your person.

Again.. I disagree with these new Body Scanners for the record.. probably the 10 to 15th time in this thread.

But IMO, walking through a metal detector is no different than the scanners on the backside of a retail store.. the purpose for the scan greatly differs and those of air travel have much more noble intentions.

So back to those lone wolf types that reside in our country.. most will not have access, the means or the intelligence to get past the pre-body scanner security checkpoints. But like any process in this world.. it is not fail proof.. and there will be exceptions.

But even that level of security is borderline excessive.. but then again I seem to be in the minority that think there should be some level of security in place before folks get into the terminal.

At least in accordance with societal norms and processes in this country of today.. if we want to revert back to a day were judgment was passed much quicker and harsher than of today..

If that is the case and we can start carrying out judgment and eliminate those looking to do wrong without question upon a lone persons judgment without due process of today.. by all means, allow all passengers to entry sans any measure of security.

Simple fact is this country is far larger than the founding fathers could imagine, far more complex than they could imagine and far more forgiving than could envision.

IMO.. we as a country have done a poor job overall adjusting to society of today with those core principles widespread... but without radical change overall how can we cherry pick this one single measure?

Patriotism has been greatly lost in this country overall.. today, many folks only point at the constitution when if fits their needs.

Let me state again.. I am not in favor of these "body scanners" nor am I insistent on the TSA as an entity being supported going forward.. but I do feel that there should be a layer of security measures of those wishing to fly in the mass transportation that is commercial flights. Nothing more.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Pack93z
14 years ago
Now.. on a different topic.. explain to me how air travel is a right again and how it is being violated today?

Not trying to be argumentative here.. I must be missing something along that way.. seriously.

How I see it..

It is a service supplied by another entity if your are flying commercially.. if you want to incur the training and cost of owning your own plane and the cost along with that, I agree it is a right.. but to fly on commercial airline, it is their equipment, your are subject to their rules and regulations.

No different than going to the fair, purchasing a ticket to the ferris wheel and having to buckle in.

You are free to purchase the ticket.. but part of that purchase it to adhere to the policies of the process. Supported by, I believe, the consent provision of the 4th amendment, whereby upon purchase you are waiving your consent to passenger screening.

IMO, your "Rights" have not be imposed upon, you are free to purchase a ticket to any destination of your choosing at any time that your can find a flight going to the destination for an agreed upon amount of compensation. Those rights haven't changed to my knowledge.. not one bit.

This was challenged UNITED STATES v. AUKAI 



Like the Third Circuit, we find these search procedures to be minimally intrusive. See Hartwell, 436 F.3d at 180(holding similar search procedures to be minimally intrusive, explaining that the procedures are well-tailored to protect personal privacy, escalating in invasiveness only after a lower level of screening disclosed a reason to conduct a more probing search).

The duration of the detention associated with this airport screening search was also reasonable. Witnesses testified that Aukai entered the checkpoint area at approximately 9:00 a.m. and that the entire search at issue-starting from when Aukai walked through the checkpoint until the TSA's efforts to rule out the presence of a weapon resulted in the discovery of drug paraphernalia-took no more than 18 minutes. Although longer than detentions approved in other cases, see, e.g., Sitz, 496 U.S. at 448, 110 S.Ct. 2481 (average delay of 25 seconds); United States v. Martinez-Fuerte, 428 U.S. 543, 546-47, 96 S.Ct. 3074, 49 L.Ed.2d 1116 (1976) (average detention of 3-5 minutes), the length of Aukai's detention was reasonable, especially in light of Aukai's conduct, because it was not prolonged beyond the time reasonably required to rule out the presence of weapons or explosives.10 See Illinois v. Caballes, 543 U.S. 405, 407, 125 S.Ct. 834, 160 L.Ed.2d 842 (2005) (stating that a seizure can become unlawful if it is prolonged beyond the time reasonably required to complete [its] mission).

Accordingly, we hold that the airport screening search of Aukai was a constitutionally reasonable administrative search.

AFFIRMED.

I concur in the result and nearly all of the reasoning in the majority opinion. I write separately, however, because I cannot join the majority's irrelevant and distracting references to 9/11 and terrorists. Daniel Aukai is no terrorist and yet, whether in 1997 or 2007, the search that law enforcement personnel conducted of his person falls squarely within the confines of a reasonable administrative search.

The majority holds, and I agree, that once a passenger enters the secured area of an airport, the constitutionality of a screening search does not depend on consent. That legal conclusion rests firmly on Supreme Court precedent and on the government's interest in ensuring the safety of passengers, airline personnel, and the general public. For decades, nefarious individuals have tried to use commercial aircraft to further a personal or political agenda at the expense of those on board and on the ground.1 And the threat continues to exist that individuals, whether members of an organized group or not, may attempt to do the same. In my view, references to a post-9/11 world, maj. op. at 960, do not advance the analysis. Nor is there any legal significance to whether or not an individual is a terrorist. See maj. op. at 960-61. By relying on those factors, the majority unnecessarily makes its solid holding dependent on the existence of the current terrorist threat, inviting future litigants to retest the viability of that holding.


"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Pack93z
14 years ago

THE MENACE of air piracy must be met--immediately and effectively. I am therefore announcing the following actions to deal with this problem:

1. To protect United States citizens and others on U.S. flag carriers, we will place specially trained, armed United States Government personnel on flights of U.S. commercial airliners. A substantial number of such personnel are already available and they will begin their duties immediately. To the extent necessary they will be supplemented by specially trained members of the Armed Forces who will serve until an adequate force of civilian guards has been assembled and trained. We will also make antisabotage training available to airlines personnel.

2. I have directed the Department of Transportation to have American flag carriers extend the use of electronic surveillance equipment and other surveillance techniques to all gateway airports and other appropriate airports in the United States and--wherever possible--in other countries. The Federal Government will provide enforcement officers to work with this equipment, to conduct searches when appropriate, and to make necessary arrests. Such equipment and techniques have already helped to reduce the problem of air piracy in many areas.

3. I have directed the Departments of Transportation, Treasury, and Defense, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Office of Science and Technology, and other agencies to accelerate their present efforts to develop security measures, including new methods for detecting weapons and explosive devices. At the same time, the Departments of Defense and Transportation will work with all U.S. airlines in determining whether certain metal detectors and x-ray devices now available to the military could provide immediate improvement in airport surveillance efforts. To facilitate passenger surveillance, appropriate agencies of the Federal Government will intensify their efforts to assemble and evaluate all useful intelligence concerning this matter and to disseminate such information to airlines and law enforcement personnel.

4. I am directing the State Department and other appropriate agencies to consult fully with foreign governments and foreign carriers concerning the full range of techniques which they use to foil hijackers. Some foreign airlines--though they are particularly susceptible to hijacking-have been successful in deterring hijackers and in coping with piracy attempts. We want to learn all we can from their experience.

5. It is imperative that all countries accept the multilateral convention providing for the extradition or punishment of hijackers which will be considered at the International Conference which will be held under the auspices of the International Civil Aviation Organization. I affirm the support of the United States both for this Convention and for the Tokyo Convention, which provides for the prompt return of hijacked aircraft, passengers, and crew. I call upon other governments to become parties to these conventions.

I further call upon the international community to take joint action to suspend airline services with those countries which refuse to punish or extradite hijackers involved in international blackmail. For this purpose and in order to consider other ways and means of meeting this new international menace, I have directed the Secretary of State to ask the President of the Council of the International Civil Aviation Organization immediately to convene that Council in an emergency meeting.

6. It is the policy of the United States Government to hold the countries in which hijacked planes are landed responsible for taking appropriate steps to protect the lives and the property of U.S. citizens.

7. An additional indication of our deep concern with the hijacking menace is the request which the United States and the United Kingdom made earlier this week for an urgent meeting of the United Nations Security Council to consider this problem. I am gratified by the unanimous action of the Security Council in calling upon the parties concerned immediately to release all hijacked passengers and crews. I am pleased, too, that the Security Council has asked all nations to take all possible legal steps to protect against further hijackings or other interference in international civil aviation.

These are not the only steps we will take in the coming months to meet the threat of airplane hijacking. But they do provide a decisive program for the immediate future. The Secretary of Transportation will direct this program and take responsibility for preparing further proposals. In this capacity he will work closely with the Secretary of State, the Secretary of the Treasury, the Attorney General, and the Secretary of Defense.

Piracy is not a new challenge for the community of nations. Most countries, including the United States, found effective means of dealing with piracy on the high seas a century and a half ago. We can--and we will--deal effectively with piracy in the skies today.




Whom coined this announcement and when?


Richard Nixon, September 11, 1970.  

"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
zombieslayer
14 years ago
Pack - I never called you unAmerican or questioned your patriotism. Look back at the previous 8 pages. I don't do that shit.

I think you're wrong, really wrong on this issue. But I respect your stances, even when they're wrong.

Just for the record.

FYI - When there is a doubt, ALWAYS err on the side of Freedom and Privacy. This needs to be set in stone, although nowadays it seems like people are more concerned about security than Freedom. I don't think I need to whip out that Ben Franklin quote again, the one we've all read a million times.

And Nixon? Really? That guy's one of the worst scumbag politicians we've had last century. Gerald Ford's going to hell for pardoning Nixon. Nixon was a sociopath - he saw nothing wrong in doing anything he could to get more power, including pissing on the Constitution.
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Nonstopdrivel
13 years ago
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Zero2Cool
12 years ago
And now it appears knives will be permitted on planes.
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Porforis
12 years ago
Small pocketknives. Of very little use to terrorists to be honest, their biggest weapon on 9/11 wasn't the "boxcutters" (which probably didn't exist), it was the concept that you should just sit on your butt because the terrorists are just going to try to get a free trip to Cuba or something. Knives or no knives, not much to do against a plane full of angry people hoping that they make it home to their family alive. That and the cockpit is much less accessible.
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