tromadz
14 years ago
The playcalling improved. Still not as balanced as it should be, and I don't care what anybody says that fake FG was MONEY. If we weren't down to our 8th string Tight End, that woulda been the game.

Turns out we had to wait a little longer to win it.

Bring on the JETS.
all_about_da_packers
14 years ago

The playcalling improved. Still not as balanced as it should be

"tromadz" wrote:



I think this is an excellent point, easily overlooked with our win.

We ran 23 times, and threw 34 times. That about as balanced as we have been this season, but it still is not good enough because teams are still playing pass-first. They are bringing 5 / 6 people on the rush, and virtually leaving the second level (particularly in the middle of the field) empty.

Jackson, clearly, is not a speed RB but he can take advantage by running between the Gs and Ts. If he can get through the line, he has a very, very good chance at getting positive yardage with a decent shot to get a long gain (5+ yard gains).

On the other hand, McCarthy is and always has been a pass first guy. His biggest weapon on this team is a very talented QB. His deepest playmaking position on offense is at WR. In other words, the strength of this offense is pass.

Despite that, I think if teams are leaving holes that can be exploited, we have to try to exploit them. McCarthy said the Vikes game may very well have been Brandon Jackson's best game of his career (it certainly was of this short season). If that is true, you have to give him the ball more than 13 times and make the defense respect your run game. Once that happens then all of a sudden you are looking at more single coverage against the WRs when dropping to pass, which makes it easier for them to win individual match-ups.

Jackson is playing quite well right now, and at this level he is going to do damage in the run game unless teams shift their emphasis to stopping the run.

Feed the beast. Certainly feed him more than 13 times a game, McCarthy.
The NFL: Where Greg Jennings Happens.
nerdmann
14 years ago

As for the back shoulder throws, why are the QB and WRs making different reads? Are they not prepared? Are they getting outsmarted by Brad Childress?

"all_about_da_packers" wrote:



Um, maybe because they are getting looks they have not seen before? Like Rodgers said after the game Sunday night, teams have 2 years worth of film on them, and they are using blends of coverages and pressures that are not showing up on film.

For example, usually in pure Cover-2 you do not play man-to-man or press-coverage. Rodgers talked about how this time around the Vikings played Cover-2 shell, but went man-to-man underneath. In other words, it's something unexpected, and Rodgers wanted his receivers to adjust by cutting their routes short and coming back to the ball. His WRs reacted differently. Frankly, when your O-line is playing as well as ours was that night, it's not a stretch to expect the QB to have a couple of seconds extra to throw, therefore you try to use your speed to get separation for a big play. The QB and WR were not on the same page; it happens when you are not expecting certain things.

Now we can blame McCarthy for not having them prepared. But if you are going to do that, then please give us some idea as to how you want McCarthy to prepare his team for things they do not see on the film. Surely you do not expect McCarthy to prepare his team each week for all the possible coverages known in the NFL that they could encounter, do you?

For the record, it is actually position coaches that go through film with their position players, not the Head Coach. You'd expect the HC to prepare a game plan based on what the tape tells him about the other team.

"nerdmann" wrote:





MM is the offensive guru in charge. Not the QB coach or the WR coach. Teams throw new things out there every week. The only things predictable are MM's calls on third and short.
Are you referring to the miscommunications on the back shoulder fades or the constant propensity to throw the ball deep? If they are seeing something new then they should put their heads together and decide how they are going to react, rather than just continuing to throw errrant passes drive after drive.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
nerdmann
14 years ago

You can sit there and defend Mike McCarthy all you want. FACT is, they are not running a WCO, according to fundamentals. They go downfield way too often. They don't rely on short, high percentage completions to get YAC.

My biggest problem with Mike McCarthy is not his playcalling however. My biggest problem with Mike McCarthy is that his teams do not consistently show up ready to play. In fact they consistenly do NOT seem ready to play. Now go change yourself.

"all_about_da_packers" wrote:



As for this bit, let's start at the top. If you think you they are going deep too often, surely you must realize that the QB is the one making the throws. In other words, the QB certainly has the option to throw underneath, if his reads merit it. Hard to blame McCarthy.

For the coverages teams have been playing - where the safties are kept outside of the box to play pass first - a good way to clear underneath routes in to have a deep route that forces the safety to double-team the receiver running the deep route. You have to have deep routes.

To sum, it is unfair to criticize McCarthy for too many deep passes because he is not specifically highlighting that the ball be thrown deep (Rodgers can exercise caution to whom he throws). On that point, it is also unfair to criticize him because receivers are running deep routes, because we need them to so that the underneath can open up more. After Mike McCarthy's first year as HC, Ted went out and drafted David Clowney, because one of the issues was that there was no WR with deep speed to open things up underneath. Of course, Clowney was cut but Greg Jennings developed and emerged his second year with that speed we desperately needed. FYI, McCarthy has never claimed to run a pure WCO, he runs a variation of the WCO. He has claimed to be influenced by the way Bill Walsh did things leading up to the game, like the "First 15" (google McCarthy's article for the GB Press Gazette a few years back), but he has not stated he tries to fully emulate Bill Walsh with his offensive system.

I'm all for criticizing McCarthy; I totally agree with your last paragraph, I think it is a very valid critique of McCarthy as coach. However, if I think you are unfairly criticizing McCarthy then I will also call you out on it. Just last week I wrote up a post in response to NSD where I lashed out at McCarthy's terrible play calling - especially in the Dolphins game. Yes, McCarthy has had moments where he has failed as a play caller and coach. But some of the issues you cited about the game in reference to McCarthy are unfairly blaming McCarthy for something he should not solely be blamed for.

"nerdmann" wrote:





Never said I was blaming MM solely. If Rodgers continues to play crappy for as long as MM's teams have generally underperformed I will call him out as well.
As for the WCO, no one is saying he should do things exactly the same way as Walsh. For instance, we don't have RBs who can run screens. Bjack has run two of them in his career that have actually looked good. One in each of the last two games. I liked the TE screen to Lee. That was innovative.
What I am speaking of is fundamentals. Yeah, you can open up underneath routes by having a guy go deep. You can also throw underneath, such as slants and whatnot. These are high percentage plays. When the CBs start jumping those routes, you pump fake and throw it over their heads. You can also run illegal picks, like the Queens did on that TD to Moss.
MM has stated that they want to throw deep, because they like how accurate Aaron Rodgers is with his deep ball. But I don't like that, especially when the need to control time of possession to keep their defense off the field. For instance, when they only have three defensive linemen, and those three are getting worn down. I also don't like it when they are not connecting on those deep balls, when they are throwing "riskier" throws which have not been panning out, requiring Jennings to "go up and make a play" on the ball over the CB, and when they are playing on shitty field turf on which people keep slipping all the time. Such as on that fake FG play to Quarless.
So, please tell me, is MM telling Rodgers to throw short, but Rodgers is just throwing deep anyway, or is he running his own "non-Bill Walsh-based" deep throwing version of the WCO?
Also, Ted did have Driver on the team, who does have deep speed.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
zombieslayer
14 years ago

The playcalling improved. Still not as balanced as it should be, and I don't care what anybody says that fake FG was MONEY. If we weren't down to our 8th string Tight End, that woulda been the game.

Turns out we had to wait a little longer to win it.

Bring on the JETS.

"tromadz" wrote:



Urgh! -1 to Trom. I'm almost starting to hate that "balance" word as much as how white folks here talk about diversity.
My man Donald Driver
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2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
doddpower
14 years ago
I think the talk of a "West Coast Offense" is over rated. We don't run a West Coast Offense, in my opinion. We run Mike McCarthy's offense. Simply because it shows some influence of a WCO does not mean it is. It has evolved. Whether or not you or I agree with the way MM runs his offense is of little importance. He doesn't run a strict WCO and isn't trying to. Not sure why some think he is and that he's calling bad plays because they're not "WCO."
zombieslayer
14 years ago
Agreed Dodd. We were WCO last year. Not this year.

With revolutions, there are always countermeasures. Like poison gas in WWI, we got gas masks.

Same thing with the WCO. The Cover 2 does a good job of defending against the WCO so you have a lot of teams that were formerly WCO moving away from it. That group includes us. Teams got really good at running Cover 2s and pretty much squashed the WCO.

MM tries to setup more of the intermediate and deep routes. Our problem as an offense was until last game, our OL didn't allow the play to develop long enough.

We have the weapons to run the deeper routes. Gregorious, Driver (uninjured), and JJ all excel at those routes. Finley did too.

If Cliffy is 100% and Bulaga works out at RT, I'd love to see us continue with what we're working on. It really all comes down to the OL.
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2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
tromadz
14 years ago

I think the talk of a "West Coast Offense" is over rated. We don't run a West Coast Offense, in my opinion. We run Mike McCarthy's offense. Simply because it shows some influence of a WCO does not mean it is. It has evolved. Whether or not you or I agree with the way Mike McCarthy runs his offense is of little importance. He doesn't run a strict WCO and isn't trying to. Not sure why some think he is and that he's calling bad plays because they're not "WCO."

"doddpower" wrote:



West Coast Offense

McCarthy Offense

Rizzle Dizzle Offense

Whatever you want to do, you have to have BALANCE(suck it, Zombie). Seriously, if there's no threat of run, our elite passing game will look mediocre because they aren't playing honest defenses, they're playing cheating defenses.

Aaron Rodgers is one of the BEST playaction QBs in the NFL and that talent is wasted because LBs just laugh when he does it now knowing it's not going to be a pass.

Now McCarthy improved on it this week but still got ways to go. BJack has SHOWN he can do some things. No, he's not gonna get 71 yards every time but neither does AP.

If I could tell McCarthy 3 things, they would be this:

1. Run it at least 15 times with one running back.
2. Lose the FB dive.
3. More screens!

The screen game has been really good the last couple weeks(except the screens to Kuhn. Thats a stupid playcall and McCarthy should be dickslapped for that)

Two key ways to keep a defense honest:

1. Run the ball as much as you pass the ball.
2. If they're going to be aggressive and play pass, screen it and use their aggressiveness against them.

This team, despite injuries, is way too talented to not be getting things done on offense. You're running out of time, McCarthy.
zombieslayer
14 years ago
I see you've never bothered to read my research, which I've spent hours on.

I agree with #2 and #3, but my research shows that #1 is completely not necessary. That is, if you want to win games, which apparently isn't your goal.
My man Donald Driver
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2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
Packers_Finland
14 years ago

I see you've never bothered to read my research, which I've spent hours on.

I agree with #2 and #3, but my research shows that #1 is completely not necessary. That is, if you want to win games, which apparently isn't your goal.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



Could you post your research somewhere easily accessible (because I haven't seen it either) so I can disect the shit out of it?
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