Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
15 years ago

It's not exactly a free and unregulated market economy. The price you pay for a draft pick is almost completely dominated by the position of the player and the pick #, and very little to do with the value you receive for what you pay, unfortunately. But that's all I'll say; I'm not foolish enough to argue with an economics professor ;)

"TheEngineer" wrote:



Why not? Most of us are pinheads.

Few occupational groups have a worse track record, after all. Well, politicians, of course; and maybe lawyers.

I'm actually convinced, by the way, that the majority of economics teachers don't really believe in the price mechanism. It's just that, once you've figured out the geometry, it's really easy to fool yourself into thinking you're teaching more than you really are when you use supply and demand graphs.

But I digress. To return to your substantive point. If it has nothing to do with the value a team receives, whyever do they pay? I just don't get that: When we make decisions that are *not* with a gun or Bubba the Humorless Thug in our faces, we make them because we believe the decision is going to make us better off than the alternative.

Now, you can say people weigh/value the wrong things, and I'd doubtless agree many times. But that's a different matter.

And of course distortions (regulation, bad info, stupidity) all affect the choices we have to value against each other. But given the distortions, a price still reflects our valuing of the choices available compared against each other.

That, IMO, is part of what makes it a beautiful mechanism. It reflects the true relative value of the alternatives we face.

If you want to argue that those distortions give us the wrong choices, I'd agree. But that's not the fault of the price mechanism. It's the fault of the distorting factors.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
15 years ago

My beginning guess.

All rookies have a 3 year contract.

The first pick in the draft gets a three million dollar signing bonus.

The last pick in the draft gets a signing bonus equivalent to one year league minimum salary.

The rest of the signing bonuses are scaled accordingly by pick.

The 1st pick in the draft makes 3 million per year.

The last pick in the draft makes league minimum.

All picks in between are scaled accordingly.

RFA after 3. All of them.

Any hold out beyond one week after the draft will cost the equivalent of one week per week in bonus and salary. Team holds rights to any drafted player for full 3 years in the event of an attempted holdout. (The Crabdouche rule :thumbleft: )

"dfosterf" wrote:



Sorry, my friend, you're dreaming. :)

Consider the following imperfect analogy. Suppose you are one of two platoon leaders in a truly volunteer army (I won't say Marine Corps, because everyone knows they're different, somehow 🙂 ). By "truly volunteer", I mean they can decline to serve in the upcoming "live fire exercise" with the other platoon".

So, anyway, here are you and your fellow platoon leader, looking at a mass of people in the exercise yard, who have played other sorts of exercise-like games, but have never played anything as tough as real army exercises. Some look great physically; some have a great resume and recommendations from their earlier exercises in the navy, politics, and accountancy. Some can do ten gazillion pushups and some can only do five gazillion. Some have attitude and some secretly live a lifestyle that has given them the clap.

Rules of the exercise are that you and your fellow platoon leader pick like any playground game. You flip a coin and the winner goes first. Then you alternate until there's no one left that you want.

Now the game changes a bit. Instead of you immediately getting to say, "okay, here's what we're going to do, and Jonesy you're going to do X and Hernandez you're going to be the ...etc.," Jonesy, Hernandez, et al say. "WTF? those other guys are going to have real guns? What you going to give me?"

You say, "Well, Hernandez gets top pay because he's my first pick. And each person gets this amount less because I picked him second." Jonesy says, fuck that shit. Yeah, Hernandez is better than me, and he should get more, I get that. But not that much more. And the difference between me and the guy in front of me is a heckuva lot smaller than the difference between me and Smith behind me. So I'm going to sit over by this nice safe tree and have a beer."

Okay, now of course being a platoon leader from hell, you would go over and chop down the tree and use it to whip Jonesy's ass into shape and take his beer.

But see, this is where the analogy breaks down. The NFL is not the Army. Ted Thompson, Mike McCarthy and company don't have the same ability to appeal to God, country, and Mom. (Much less dishonorable discharges and master sergeants.)

To put it bluntly, you have to kiss Jonesy's ass to get him to play. Especially since he's already played with and against that idiot Smith that the other guy drafted three rounds earlier and he *knows* he can whip Smith any day ending in "y".

Pure slotting sounds nice. And it might work for the lower rounds where you aren't dealing with the primadonnas who've lived their lives with their asses being kissed.

But only if there's some uncertaintly left. Only if Jonesy doesn't know for sure exactly what Smith gets. If you can still tell him (lie?) that you're going to do more for him than Dan Snyder is going to do for Smith, you can get him out from under his tree. But if he knows for sure Smith is getting more, he's going to sit, slack, or both.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
dfosterf
15 years ago
I just wanted to look at my new signature.
Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago
lmfao @ the ginormity of this sig graphic. +1
UserPostedImage
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
15 years ago
llomfao @ the ginormity of the neologism "ginormity."

+1
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Zero2Cool
15 years ago

I think its great that owners complain about rookies' salaries, when THEY are the ones writing the checks. "God dammitt rookies make too much money! Rabble rabble rabble! Oh, JaMarcus Russell, here's $32 million guaranteed. Matt Stafford, here's $40 million. Rabble rabble rabble!."

That would be like me going to the strip club, tipping the dancers $20 a song, and then bitching because I didn't have any money afterward.

Hilarious.

"IronMan" wrote:

Point well taken, however, if they don't offer it, they lose the player they drafted. So, it's not as easy as refusing to pay because the next one will which therein lies the bigger problem. If they had a unwritten rule not to exceed X amount, then maybe we wouldn't need a written rule.

I'm surprised it's taken this long for the owners to finally throw a tizzy over this and also surprised not more has been voiced from veteran players.










How much should rookies get? I still believe in the pay as you go, earn your keep method.

Not exactly like this, but to get the idea.
15 Mil guaranteed, with each year growing by 15% in the contract dicated by how many years the contract is with a mutual clause in year three (regardless of the length) to redo the contract in favor of the player or team.

That's one small paragraph that would need a lot of red tape to harness the variables, but each position lower would get decreased down to a certain wage, say 450k a year or something.
UserPostedImage
IronMan
15 years ago

I think its great that owners complain about rookies' salaries, when THEY are the ones writing the checks. "God dammitt rookies make too much money! Rabble rabble rabble! Oh, JaMarcus Russell, here's $32 million guaranteed. Matt Stafford, here's $40 million. Rabble rabble rabble!."

That would be like me going to the strip club, tipping the dancers $20 a song, and then bitching because I didn't have any money afterward.

Hilarious.

"Zero2Cool" wrote:

Point well taken, however, if they don't offer it, they lose the player they drafted. So, it's not as easy as refusing to pay because the next one will which therein lies the bigger problem. If they had a unwritten rule not to exceed X amount, then maybe we wouldn't need a written rule.

"IronMan" wrote:


But once a player is drafted, he either signs with the team that drafted them, or they wait to get drafted again the next year. The team has the upper hand. They should use that power. Don't want to sign the contract? Fine. Sit out the year and try your luck next April. It would suck to lose a draft pick because of that, but it would damn sure send a message to future draftees. Besides, I am pretty sure that if a player was given that choice, he would sign the contract rather than sit out the year.
dfosterf
15 years ago
I carefully read your post Wade.

I think you are wrong. My slot system would not only work, I believe the players would see the equity in it. Many are making much more comparative to their higher picked counterparts than they would under the existing system, and the money is sick enough, long enough, into the picks that no one is feeling slighted financially. What's my gap between picks? A tad under 12k, yes?

Compare that to what we have now. I think the draft picks would love to just take it as it comes, and the only real problem (imo) is going to be the player's agents, and they are just going to have to get over it.

I say they are "going to have to get over it" because a version of "my" plan, including an allotment of the funds to former players, is precisely what the league is advocating. This was disclosed in a "leaked" memo by the NFLPA, so I admit that "my" plan is somewhat skewed by what is known about what is "coming down the pike".

I dismiss all of your lack of motivation due to pay discrepencies arguments immediately. If anything, we have that to a far larger degree presently than we would under my system, and the "dogging it due to pay issues" is an extreme exception now.

You failed to address possibly the key component in "my" plan that would assist in the "motivating a perceived slight" player. While it is true that my plan eliminates flexibility for players and agents for the duration of their rookie contract, they are ALL playing for that 2nd contract, and I would submit that the motivating aspects of a three year plan vs. up to 6 years (presently) is a huge improvement in that arena.

My numbers might be flawed, because I did not crunch them, but the plan is sound, and unlike most of the ideas I am seeing... it is realistic, contrasted with utopic. In fairness, it is my post that is "off-topic", because I was looking at what is in fact viable, contrasted with the title and most posts in this thread, which is "what is fair?" from, I assume, the various posters' perspective.

The danger in a rookie pool might come from some upstart league, players that opt to switch to a different sport, failure of players to even take up the sport, etc. due to perceived lack of renumeration comparative to other sports, etc. That would be your arena, and would look to you on those matters as an economist.

Leave the motivating of youth arguments to us experts. :thumbleft:

I say you are jaded due to some evidence that snot-noses bitching works in your environment, coupled with evidence that laziness is also at least tolerated to a certain degree. I would just say that in the NFL-and the military--bitching about shit is a far cry from not doing something just because you don't like it. It is so very common in both fields of endeavor, but in both it is the same...tough f$cking shit. :thumbleft: The fear of retribution in the military is (by far) the absolute smallest aspect of what motivates people, btw--This is an entire field of study that I will not get into, but you would start with peer pressure and not letting your "guys in the same f$cking boat as you" down. I submit that most of it is universal, and the analogies between professional sports and the military are sound...probably more so than any other "in the real world."

These are the same kids that geezers like me have been getting to knowingly risk stopping a bullet for around the rough equivalent of minimum wage for centuries. There is no risk of that where these "kids in question" are headed, job-wise, so the cash and the nature of employment more than make up the differences in "where they have been" and "how they have been treated". These kids might not be as smart as I'd like them, (I'll call them diverted/pre-occupied, to be fair) but they are damn sure go-getters, with very few exceptions, indeed.
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
15 years ago

I carefully read your post Wade.

I think you are wrong. My slot system would not only work, I believe the players would see the equity in it. Many are making much more comparative to their higher picked counterparts than they would under the existing system, and the money is sick enough, long enough, into the picks that no one is feeling slighted financially. What's my gap between picks? A tad under 12k, yes?

Compare that to what we have now. I think the draft picks would love to just take it as it comes, and the only real problem (imo) is going to be the player's agents, and they are just going to have to get over it.

I say they are "going to have to get over it" because a version of "my" plan, including an allotment of the funds to former players, is precisely what the league is advocating. This was disclosed in a "leaked" memo by the NFLPA, so I admit that "my" plan is somewhat skewed by what is known about what is "coming down the pike".

I dismiss all of your lack of motivation due to pay discrepencies arguments immediately. If anything, we have that to a far larger degree presently than we would under my system, and the "dogging it due to pay issues" is an extreme exception now.

You failed to address possibly the key component in "my" plan that would assist in the "motivating a perceived slight" player. While it is true that my plan eliminates flexibility for players and agents for the duration of their rookie contract, they are ALL playing for that 2nd contract, and I would submit that the motivating aspects of a three year plan vs. up to 6 years (presently) is a huge improvement in that arena.

My numbers might be flawed, because I did not crunch them, but the plan is sound, and unlike most of the ideas I am seeing... it is realistic, contrasted with utopic. In fairness, it is my post that is "off-topic", because I was looking at what is in fact viable, contrasted with the title and most posts in this thread, which is "what is fair?" from, I assume, the various posters' perspective.

The danger in a rookie pool might come from some upstart league, players that opt to switch to a different sport, failure of players to even take up the sport, etc. due to perceived lack of renumeration comparative to other sports, etc. That would be your arena, and would look to you on those matters as an economist.

Leave the motivating of youth arguments to us experts. :thumbleft:

I say you are jaded due to some evidence that snot-noses bitching works in your environment, coupled with evidence that laziness is also at least tolerated to a certain degree. I would just say that in the NFL-and the military--bitching about shit is a far cry from not doing something just because you don't like it. It is so very common in both fields of endeavor, but in both it is the same...tough f$cking shit. :thumbleft: The fear of retribution in the military is (by far) the absolute smallest aspect of what motivates people, btw--This is an entire field of study that I will not get into, but you would start with peer pressure and not letting your "guys in the same f$cking boat as you" down. I submit that most of it is universal, and the analogies between professional sports and the military are sound...probably more so than any other "in the real world."

These are the same kids that geezers like me have been getting to knowingly risk stopping a bullet for around the rough equivalent of minimum wage for centuries. There is no risk of that where these "kids in question" are headed, job-wise, so the cash and the nature of employment more than make up the differences in "where they have been" and "how they have been treated". These kids might not be as smart as I'd like them, (I'll call them diverted/pre-occupied, to be fair) but they are damn sure go-getters, with very few exceptions, indeed.

"dfosterf" wrote:



Some responses:
1. I knew I was going to get my ass handed to me by trying anything approaching a military analogy. I knew it, and I still opened my mouth. Well, as I admitted in the preceding reply to engineer...
2. I'm in a pinhead profession. I'm trying to fulfill the jobrequirements. :)
3. Marine 1, Pinhead 0.

Now, taking the thread even farther off a tangent:

You and I,I think, agree that higher ed is,well, pretty much fucked. We also, I think,agree that there is a cadre of experts at motivating youth out there.

So, why the fuck can't we figure out away to put that cadre in charge of higher ed?
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
dfosterf
15 years ago
For starters---

The snot nosed little bastards are customers, not subordinates, and even they got that one figured out.

The [strike]commies [/strike] PC people (same-same crowd) are running the show.


(OK-- this one is a little more than tongue-in-cheek)

There is depth here somewhere, on some level. :thumbleft:
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Mucky Tundra (19h) : RICKEY SCOOPS WAS RIGHT AGAIN!!!
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Zero2Cool (28-Aug) : Bahah, I was like WTF why isn't anyone posting on PP.com ... oops no one has permissions
dfosterf (27-Aug) : tell her I reckon
dfosterf (27-Aug) : Micah Robinson cut. Probable PS player tomorrow. Has to call mom back and t
Zero2Cool (27-Aug) : New site so much better. Might make switch and deal with it.
dfosterf (27-Aug) : Mecole Hardman to our practice squad
dfosterf (27-Aug) : Nick Nieman from Texans our 5th linebacker. Special teams signing
TheKanataThrilla (27-Aug) : Looks like we signed Clayton Tune as QB3
wpr (27-Aug) : TKT people lose their minds over QB3. Point is almost none of them are ready that's why they are on the PS and other teams don't take them.
TheKanataThrilla (27-Aug) : Unfortunately he doesn't seem ready to be an emergency QB.
TheKanataThrilla (27-Aug) : As a Canadian and a follower of Canadian University football. I am rooting for him
dfosterf (27-Aug) : I bet a lot of us will follow the Taylor Elgersma journey with interest. Personally, got a Kurt Warner vibe goin' on. I like him
TheKanataThrilla (27-Aug) : Not sure if either will be claimed though.
TheKanataThrilla (27-Aug) : Tune or Hooker would make sense
dfosterf (27-Aug) : Clayton Tune cut by the Cards? Don't know if that's the guy, we shall see
TheKanataThrilla (27-Aug) : Per Bill Huber, the Packers will not be bringing back Taylor Elgersma or Sean Clifford on the practice squad, so a new third quarterback
Mucky Tundra (27-Aug) : Schefter must have deleted his tweet
dfosterf (27-Aug) : Hopefully Jerry reaches under the seat cushions and ashtrays of his jet and scrapes up the 45 million apr and spares us further nonsense
dfosterf (27-Aug) : Have to admit the PO'd Cowboy fan videos would be fun to watch. Problem with draft picks is half their fanbase barely knows what that is
beast (27-Aug) : I think Cowboys fans are ready to get their pitch forks and burning sticks if Jerry were to trade Micah
dfosterf (27-Aug) : If Jerry traded Micah to GB, here in northern Va. they would have to quick build yet another data center to handle the internet hate traffic
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dfosterf (27-Aug) : 19 players in a contract year. Jones called loss to us worst loss in Cowboy history. Forget Parsons trade. Not happenin' Cap'n
packerfanoutwest (27-Aug) : The Packers, meanwhile, are the youngest team in the league for the third consecutive year.
dfosterf (27-Aug) : That it was darkest before the dawn in Bengals and Commanders before they got deals done
Zero2Cool (27-Aug) : what is Schefter saying?
dfosterf (27-Aug) : He was getting Dorito infusion therapy
dfosterf (27-Aug) : He's outta shape. Why, just the other day I saw him splayed out on the trainers table
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