RELEASED - OT.. Levi Jones· Page 5

dd80forever
Registered

16 years ago

For one thing, the ZBS is not the place to go looking for consistancy and actually will make an OL look bad more times than good.

"warhawk" wrote:

:cyclopsani: :cyclopsani: :cyclopsani:

We will be getting bigger and stronger in the middle with Sitton coming in there and probably Spitz or the kid from Buffalo at center and there are hints more power running is on the horizon.

"warhawk" wrote:

No you are HOPING we will. Classic "don't worry we have other guys to try there" syndrome. Bodies do not mean we have depth

blank

Nonstopdrivel
Preferred Member

16 years ago

#42

His guess is as good as yours. The truth is none of us really know at this point. What will you say if his prediction turns out correct and these guys do blossom? What will you bitch about then?

dd80forever
Registered

16 years ago

#43

His guess is as good as yours. The truth is none of us really know at this point. What will you say if his prediction turns out correct and these guys do blossom? What will you bitch about then?

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:

You are 100% Correct. I'm guessing they won't make any difference. Perhaps they will be great in which place I will praise Ted.

Year after year, however we rely on young guys and year after year we get inconsistent play. I've waited for Ted to fix it since he came aboard, and here we are 4 years later, with young, incosistent lineman. Then you want to turn to the rookie behind him. Eventually Ted will get it right out of sheer luck I'd imagine

blank

beast
Select Member

16 years ago

#44

"Inconsistent" Colledge was the best OL last year....

"pack93z" wrote:

Is that really saying alot with the number of breakdown's in protection and our pathetic run blocking?

While I would argue that assessment, footage doesn't lie and I would give that "best" nod to Spitz, my overall point is we didn't have a single legitimate NFL quality starter game in and out on the offensive line. Period.

Three years in the making and we still watch Colledge struggle to read a stunt correctly, utilize proper leverage and keep his feet in the proper placement. This is game to game, sometimes even snap to snap within the game.. Colledge apparently lacks the proper focus to line up and consistently nail his assignment.

I will stick by my assessment, Colledge is not a down to down consistent offensive lineman up til this point. IMO, he fights his natural upright stance that a tackle would use and with the thicker interior defensive lineman, when he gets high he gets in trouble.

Take Colledge an put him on a team with good line play inside and his ass isn't starting at guard.. I can guarantee that.

"beast" wrote:

What just because Colledge technique isn't prefect means he's not good enough?

All that really matters is that he gets the job done with out breaking the rules.... and he does and he's good enough to start on many NFL OL around the NFL.

For the same reason Ted Thompson hasn't signed any FA over the hill lately... because you don't want to take time and space away from the young guys to develop... the Packers ain't looking for these one year stop gap nonsense but are looking long term... and long term you want young develop guys more than on the downside of their career injury prone guys....

"pack93z" wrote:

This here is one of my biggest peeves about Thompson's approach, and it isn' t that I disagree with building the core of the roster with youth.

It simply is, if you have nothing but youth or inconsistency at positions, it is not the optimal place to have players developing on the fly in week in and out starting activity.

In year four of his building of the roster, we have little to show for allowing all this youth continuing to play on the offensive line and continue to struggle week to week. You look to the bench to try and find stability and consistency, and all you have is more youth and lack of consistency.. especially along the offensive line.

I strongly argue that Colledge, Spitz and to a lesser degree Moll have grown marginally over this tenure. Behind then each year is another wave of young green lineman, thus the interior of our line has been wildly inconsistent as a whole.

In a perfect world, one would have a blend of veterans to play in spots or starting while the youngsters are developing. Sometimes if a young player has the right makeup, you start him and continue to play him in excess, but the majority of the time that is one spot along the line with experience and stability around him.

Yearly, especially on the offensive line, it is not ideal to have a depth chart of 1st and 2nd year players either starting or playing extended amounts of time with nothing but youth and inconsistency around them.. it is a recipe poor line play overall.

Think our line play has been spotty with Clifton and Tauscher manning the tackle spots.. just wait til you get a load of Colledge, Barbre or Moll out there with their spurts of inconsistency and no veteran to turn to. Flynn or Brohm better be ready..

"beast" wrote:

I love that Thompson isn't signed stop gap vets and cutting guys that could become better than the vets and last a LOT longer......

MM and the others have all said the moving them around at many different positions have slowed down their learning.

I don't want a one year injury problem waiting to happen space taking problem, just to cut a guy that could become a starter..... it's nonsense...

Pack93z
Select Member Topic Starter

16 years ago

#45

93, I would say your assessment is harsh to put it mildly. You and I watch every single play the Packers run so all the impurities are vivid but the overall numbers that are produced shows how we stack up against all other teams.
If were THAT BAD how can the numbers be that good?

For one thing, the ZBS is not the place to go looking for consistancy and actually will make an OL look bad more times than good. So if your looking for consistancy play in-play out petition for a power run game. You put a RB out there parallel to the LOS looking for a read and your going to see negative plays. I don't care how good your OL are.

We will be getting bigger and stronger in the middle with Sitton coming in there and probably Spitz or the kid from Buffalo at center and there are hints more power running is on the horizon.

I also wouldn't look at just the guys Ted Thompson has brought in here and the youth not developing as much as we would like. Our two OT's both had the worst years of their careers and would hope that at least Clifton will bounce back.

In fact, if I had a criticism of the OL it would be we did not get the play out of the OT spot on either side we have been accustomed to in the past. Especially in pass protection and at the end of the day thats the big deal to me because this team is built to win games by Arod getting the ball to his receivers. We are not going to lead this league rushing the ball nor with where the talent lies should we try.

"warhawk" wrote:

Harsh probably, but sickening to watch it one week having success and then next watching pea holes for natural breaks.

While I am not a huge fan of the ZBS and we are hampered by the fact we don't chop people (which I respect highly), there should be at least signs of consistency.

But that is part of the issue at heart, we have been trying to blend systems and wind up with mediocrity in the running game, which was also there toward the end of the 08 season as well. Up and down success.

People seem to think I dislike Colledge as a player, that really isn't the case, I get wound up that the coaching staff has to see the spikes in the level of his play and the reasons for it.. by watching his play he should be manning one of the tackles spots.

So the modified scheme we run is part of the issue and IMO, the other part is the position coaches trying to implement it.

So yes, it was harsh, but in watching the individual play along the line, I can't honestly grade a single lineman over the course of the season as anything but average.

In terms of the numbers this offense cranks out, is that really due to the offensive lines play or pretty decent play calling to keep the offense rolling. One could look at our yards per carry and argue the merits of the offensive line as well. The sacks and pressure statistics aren't glowing exceptionally either, albeit some of that is due to a beat slow reaction from a first time starter.

I am truly hoping that we have an interior of the line that consists of a combination of Sitton, Spitz, Preston, and Lang. Watching film of the Lang kid, I am telling you he might walk in and be the most fundamentally sound lineman we have day one, if he can handle the jump in competition.

Much like watching Hawk sit on his heels and wait on defense.. there isn't a player that irritates me more watching him play than Colledge. Some weeks I even tried to focus elsewhere.. a truly maddening player because you know he can play at a high level but yet doesn't week in and out.

"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"

beast
Select Member

16 years ago

#46

We will be getting bigger and stronger in the middle with Sitton coming in there and probably Spitz or the kid from Buffalo at center and there are hints more power running is on the horizon.

"warhawk" wrote:

No you are HOPING we will. Classic "don't worry we have other guys to try there" syndrome. Bodies do not mean we have depth

And others are HOPING that Jones won't keep doing what he has been doing in missing games due to injuries. Classic "the grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome. Vet don't mean their going do anything but be an older body that won't be around long and taking up room for a young guy already here.

Pack93z
Select Member Topic Starter

16 years ago

#47

I love that Thompson isn't signed stop gap vets and cutting guys that could become better than the vets and last a LOT longer......

Mike McCarthy and the others have all said the moving them around at many different positions have slowed down their learning.

I don't want a one year injury problem waiting to happen space taking problem, just to cut a guy that could become a starter..... it's nonsense...

"beast" wrote:

This is a repetitive discussion, but I will try to explain the point again.

You sign a guy like this, not that I am dying to sign this particular player, to come in and compete in camp, push the others, and give the coaching staff more options. If he is one of the best options on the team, you keep him on the roster.. if he performs even or marginally better than the younger guys, you waive him. It isn't like we are going to throw a multi-million dollar signing bonus at him.

In the terms of the offensive line, sorry I am a hard ass on having some worthy experience to compete and stabilize the unit.

But I give, it really isn't the end of the world either way. I prefer a bit of a blend on the OLine.. you prefer youth over all.. but remember this as well.

Potential is only valuable if it is achieved.. our track record at developing lineman is far from stellar under this coaching staff and personnel department.. all I am saying is adding more affordable options makes sense to me.. if they make the final 53.. so be it.

"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"

beast
Select Member

16 years ago

#48

While I am not a huge fan of the ZBS and we are hampered by the fact we don't chop people (which I respect highly), there should be at least signs of consistency.

But that is part of the issue at heart, we have been trying to blend systems and wind up with mediocrity in the running game, which was also there toward the end of the 08 season as well. Up and down success.

People seem to think I dislike Colledge as a player, that really isn't the case, I get wound up that the coaching staff has to see the spikes in the level of his play and the reasons for it.. by watching his play he should be manning one of the tackles spots.

So the modified scheme we run is part of the issue and IMO, the other part is the position coaches trying to implement it.

So yes, it was harsh, but in watching the individual play along the line, I can't honestly grade a single lineman over the course of the season as anything but average.

"pack93z" wrote:

First off I agree with you I think Colledge should be playing OT... and Lang or Barbre should be the the LG.

Also Colledge play this year was above average IMO. And that was while practicing at LT most of the year but still playing LG.

The biggest thing that has been holding back the running game the most is Wells. He may be smart... and may not very very very few mistakes.... but plain and simple he's not good... or even close to average IMO. He gets so little push if any at all....

Colledge is playing out of position because he should be playing OT. Spitz should of been starting at C for a while now.

Spitz play was average and Colledge play was above average. At C Spitz should be above average if he can stop those fumbling on the snaps which he showed he stoped by the end of the season.

Also Clifton and Tausher don't fit well with zone blocking. Well Clifton doesn't fit well with any run blocking but he's worse in zone.

beast
Select Member

16 years ago

#49

You sign a guy like this, not that I am dying to sign this particular player, to come in and compete in camp, push the others, and give the coaching staff more options. If he is one of the best options on the team, you keep him on the roster.. if he performs even or marginally better than the younger guys, you waive him. It isn't like we are going to throw a multi-million dollar signing bonus at him.

"pack93z" wrote:

I get your point of more options is a good thing and I agree. I just don't like the Jones option.

Also I think the best options are looking for guys that will have stuff in the tank for years to come and aren't injury prone.

Mckennj3
Registered

16 years ago

#50

Couldnt agree more pack93, I'm all for the youth potential act, but honestly we've given it enough of a chance to atleast explore other options.
He's already been open to competition in Seattle so its safe to say he's not looking for starter money and is open to proving himself as an elite linemen again.. I say throw a bit of coin to him and bring him to camp, like pack says if he's marginal or inconsistant can his ass... if not theres a chance he could back to his pro bowl form for a few more years.. Let's not forget folks he's only 29, id say there is more potential in him returning to form then some of this young bucks turning into something special... just my 2 cents

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