To rebuild, or not to rebuild· Page 3

beast
Select Member

a year ago

⚠ ⚠ ⚠ I'm gonna go super pedantic and semantic here. ⚠ ⚠ ⚠
The definition of rebuilding is to build something again after it has been destroyed. Being the pedantic person I am, I don't think the Packers were destroyed. I think they're just doing some remodeling and partaking in the constant evolution of an NFL roster. 🤷‍♂️

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool

Okay, if you're getting super semantically, then maybe the entire definition needs to be used, not just the part that backs up your point of view.

re·build
/rēˈbild/
verb
gerund or present participle: rebuilding

build (something) again after it has been damaged or destroyed.
"we try to help them rebuild their lives"

Similar: reconstruct, renovate, restore

The Packers were not destroyed, but losing Rodgers, Adams, Lazard, Cobb, Lewis, Tonyan, Amos, Reed, Lowry and more did damage the Packers depth and quality of talent.

Zero2Cool
Elite Member Topic Starter

a year ago

#22

Okay, if you're getting super semantically, then maybe the entire definition needs to be used, not just the part that backs up your point of view.

Originally Posted by: beast

I want to be abundantly clear here. I do not know what rebuilding means, or what it is because it really does not make any sense whatsoever to me. I tried explaining what it means to me in my opening post. And I can assure you, if you catch me on the street in three months and ask me what rebuilding means in the NFL, I can assure you, you will get a different answer. So let's stop this nonsense about "backs up your point of view" when my point of view is as clear as wearing bifocals upside down and backwards. It's simply a discussion topic. There really is not right answer, there really is no wrong answer so hop off that train and enjoy some useless chatter.

Zero2Cool
Elite Member Topic Starter

a year ago

#23

The Packers were not destroyed, but losing Rodgers, Adams, Lazard, Cobb, Lewis, Tonyan, Amos, Reed, Lowry and more did damage the Packers depth and quality of talent.

Originally Posted by: beast

FORGIVE MY PEDANTIC approach here, but you can't include Davante Adams or guys who left prior to 2022 season. My brain can't handle trying to encapsulate all of those possibilities into this too!!

As for the plethora of guys you mentioned causing damage. How do you know? I mean, are you saying rebuilding via your presumptions? Heck, maybe Doubs outshines Lazard? Maybe Watson is as productive as Cobb? Maybe Owens out performs Amos? Maybe Slaton out performs Reed? I mean, you can't really use those guys as doing damage because the net outcome could be the Packers are better in 2023 than they were in 2022. Which I know is super weird to say because Rodgers → Love. To that, I would challenge, did Rodgers really do anything in 2022 that you can't see Jordan Love also doing? 🤷‍♂️

I think rebuilding needs to be more clear-cut than this. BUT, I did say 2022 Seahawks felt like a rebuilding team and they sure as heck were better in 2022 than 2021. I would challenge my argument (against myself) in that their rookie class massively kicked ass so rebuilding could still suffice due to the massive overachieving rookie class.

beast
Select Member

a year ago

#24

FORGIVE MY PEDANTIC approach here, but you can't include Davante Adams or guys who left prior to 2022 season.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool

Totally wrong... there is no rule that says it must be this exact year! Adams left and that alone damaged the Packers quick passing attack, of which they have not yet recovered from... so it's still available, especially if one believes the loss of Adams (and the Rodgers/Adams connection) is what caused the offense to get so much worse, despite getting both Bakhtiari and Jenkins back along the OL.

Packers didn't have to rebuild the WR corps with Adams, they did without Adams, that's a direct correlation between the two.

If Love flames out, then you can bet people will be pointing to the loss of Rodgers which will be more than a year ago next year at this time.

Zero2Cool
Elite Member Topic Starter

a year ago

#25

Originally Posted by: beast

I just freaking made the rule!! 😂😂😂😂

I get what you're saying, however, if Jordan Love is poop, I thinik that is when the Packers WILL enter an actual rebuild. Meaning, they'll trade guys like Jenkins, Bakhtiari, Clark, etc for draft capital because they'll actually be rebuilding.

I feel we could go on this subject for weeks, months, haha. I hope it's not annoying you. I do find the "rebuilding" thing to be interesting. And I should say, the more this goes on, the less I feel the Packers are rebuilding. I was actually kind of hoping my mind would change for some weird reason.

beast
Select Member

a year ago

#26

As for the plethora of guys you mentioned causing damage. How do you know? I mean, are you saying rebuilding via your presumptions? Heck, maybe Doubs outshines Lazard? Maybe Watson is as productive as Cobb? Maybe Owens out performs Amos? Maybe Slaton out performs Reed? I mean, you can't really use those guys as doing damage because the net outcome could be the Packers are better in 2023 than they were in 2022. Which I know is super weird to say because Rodgers → Love. To that, I would challenge, did Rodgers really do anything in 2022 that you can't see Jordan Love also doing? 🤷‍♂️

I think rebuilding needs to be more clear-cut than this. BUT, I did say 2022 Seahawks felt like a rebuilding team and they sure as heck were better in 2022 than 2021. I would challenge my argument (against myself) in that their rookie class massively kicked ass so rebuilding could still suffice due to the massive overachieving rookie class.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool

You're making a false argument, putting false words in my mouth. Using just one of your examples, I'm not saying Doubs won't be better than Lazard... I'm saying that Doubs won't be better than Lazard AND Doubs. Just like I know two is a higher number than one.

I CAN AND I DID use those guys to tell there doing damage, and rightfully so as explained above.

The Seahawks got a ton from their QB trade. Had their backup vet QB turn into an amazing starter. Finally got a good RB to stay healthy and finally drafted a good OL and possibly got the steal of the draft in CB Woolen, and had depth in areas where they had injuries.

It is more clear cut, is the team realistically playing to go deep into the playoffs this year? The answer is a clear hell no...

Didn't sign a single expense veteran FA... their first FA was a LS ... they are absolutely and clearly rebuilding their chemistry and playing for next year where Gute has stated taking all of Rodgers cap hit this year (like they were showing they were clearly going to do, as the June 1st stuff was clearly fans only) and get cap space to fill potential needs next year.

Speaking of which, might be interesting to see what Safeties are FAs for 2024.

Zero2Cool
Elite Member Topic Starter

a year ago

#27

Originally Posted by: beast

Ahh, I see what I did wrong in your eyes. OKay, okay. Alright, so I should have said Jayden Reed might out produce Allen Lazard. The blocking thing though, I think Lazard gonna win that hands down and that value cannot be seen directly in the box score. I do believe guys like Musgrave and Kraft will improve the TE position so I think that effectively eliminates the Lewis portion.

I CAN AND I DID use those guys to tell there doing damage, and rightfully so as explained above.

The Seahawks got a ton from their QB trade. Had their backup vet QB turn into an amazing starter. Finally got a good RB to stay healthy and finally drafted a good OL and possibly got the steal of the draft in CB Woolen, and had depth in areas where they had injuries.

It is more clear cut, is the team realistically playing to go deep into the playoffs this year? The answer is a clear hell no...

Didn't sign a single expense veteran FA... their first FA was a LS ... they are absolutely and clearly rebuilding their chemistry and playing for next year where Gute has stated taking all of Rodgers cap hit this year (like they were showing they were clearly going to do, as the June 1st stuff was clearly fans only) and get cap space to fill potential needs next year.

Speaking of which, might be interesting to see what Safeties are FAs for 2024.

Originally Posted by: beast

I don't think the Packers were clear cut playoff team even with Aaron Rodgers in 2023.

You mention they didn't sign a single expense (expensive?) veteran free agent for 2023, but that's kind of the norm for the Packers, isn't it? I mean, we always bemoan the Packers lacking in free agency shark invested waters. So, why is 2023 rebuilding but other years not?

If the Packers would have traded away veterans (plural), I could buy into your rebuilding definition (at least from how I understand it), but they didn't. They still have guys like Kenny Clark, Elgton Jenkins, David Bakhtiari, Preston Smith, Jaire Alexander, etc.. Sure, they traded away a QB on a dumb contract who did not want to be with the Packers anymore.

I'm trying to see how this is some break from the normal construct of the Packers to constitute "rebuilding", but it just feels like business as usual. Of course, with the exception of a new QB.

I think MY issue is I see rebuilding to be more drastic than some others. Meaning, rebuilding is actually rebuilding to me whereas the Packers are just recovering from trying to "go all in" for a few years. Packers shot their shot, missed.

In other words, I feel maybe 2-3 teams are actually rebuilding, but others see maybe 10-12 teams rebuilding. Then my question to myself is WTF do we call what the Packers are doing?? 🤦‍♂️😂

I think it's just the Packers Way of business. 🤷‍♂️

beast
Select Member

a year ago

#28

I don't think the Packers were clear cut playoff team even with Aaron Rodgers in 2023.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool

Maybe not, but they were trying to be... and if Rodgers didn't have his thumb injury, they probably would of been in the playoffs. (Or you know, they let Love play and sat Rodgers as he healed)...

You mention they didn't sign a single expense (expensive?) veteran free agent for 2023, but that's kind of the norm for the Packers, isn't it? I mean, we always bemoan the Packers lacking in free agency shark invested waters. So, why is 2023 rebuilding but other years not?

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool

True, but this year was CLEARLY worse... as the Packers also largely did not even resign their own as they usually do and the Packers big FA that you know for sure that is making the roster, is a LS. Yes they signed a ton of veteran Safeties, but with their small 5 figure signing bonuses, some of them will probably be released and no one is clearly safe.

If the Packers would have traded away veterans (plural), I could buy into your rebuilding definition (at least from how I understand it), but they didn't.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool

And why didn't they? Because they didn't have too, the veterans were mostly FAs... so you didn't have to cut or trade them away... and as you pointed out in your other post, the Packers roster has the 2nd least people over 30 on it...

So these other teams that you are claiming are rebuilding and getting rid of the older guys, they actually have more older guys than the Packers.

So the issue isn't that they're getting rid of guys, it's that your limiting yourself to how the guys must be gotten rid of...

When really, does it matter how you do something? Just that it gets done... that's the important part.

Gute should be getting bonus points for timing it right so he didn't have to release them.

They still have guys like Kenny Clark, Elgton Jenkins, David Bakhtiari, Preston Smith, Jaire Alexander, etc..

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool

And the team you are claiming are rebuilding have more guys over 30 on it than the Packers do...

You don't want to use the word rebuilding as a matter of style, in the manner of how they're doing it, not in substance of the roster changes.

I'm trying to see how this is some break from the normal construct of the Packers to constitute "rebuilding", but it just feels like business as usual.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool

Normally the Packers resign a majority of their own, and they didn't even seem to attempt to this year (unless basement cheap) that's a major break from normal construction.

Normally TE Lewis becomes a FA and the Packers resign him. That's a change.

I think MY issue is I see rebuilding to be more drastic than some others. Meaning, rebuilding is actually rebuilding to me whereas the Packers are just recovering from trying to "go all in" for a few years. Packers shot their shot, missed.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool

Yes Gute is doing this much more smoothly than one normally expects, create him for being smooth about it,.or getting lucky with the timing that most.of.the vets were FAs.

In other words, I feel maybe 2-3 teams are actually rebuilding, but others see maybe 10-12 teams rebuilding. Then my question to myself is WTF do we call what the Packers are doing?? 🤦‍♂️😂

I think it's just the Packers Way of business. 🤷‍♂️

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool

The Packers are clearly getting rid of a majority of the older guys, and restocking cap space, restocking the offensive weapons and DL over two years, and previously attempted to restock the OL over the previous two or three years.

I think we all agree with that... it's just that we call that different things.

Some of us call that rebuilding. Others of us don't.

Back to the levels

1) Tanking like the Bears did, to guarantee a top five pick. Burning what they had to the ground.

2) Total Rebuild like the Lions did with their current head coach and GM.

3) We're arguing over what to call this, but I call it a rebuilding or a lighter rebuild, and there was another word you used that I thought was better, but I just don't hear it used in the NFL.

4) Reload... like the Chiefs keep doing, while still competing at an elite level, and the Saints stupidly attempt to do year after year after year, when it's obvious they need to rebuild, but their current GM will always be overly aggressive and trying to win right now, trying to reload and skip the rebuild stages .

#2 and #3 for me are both called rebuilding, as you're not trying to tank, but you're also not pushing all your chips in and trying to win right now. But building to win in the future. Just to different degrees of that.

Zero2Cool
Elite Member Topic Starter

a year ago

#29

You opened up a lot of issues in this response. I don't think any of the guys the Packers didn't re-sign were really that big of a deal. I could be failing to remember, but none of them did I go 'damn, I was hoping they'd re-sign him'. I think where I'm at is rebuilding is more so something you willingly elect to do, rather than it just happens out of coincidental circumstances.

You don't want to use the word rebuilding as a matter of style, in the manner of how they're doing it, not in substance of the roster changes.

Originally Posted by: beast

You didn't like when you thought I was putting words in your mouth, don't dare tell me what I want. I've made it very clear I do not know what rebuilding is. I've stated what I feel it is and also stated that if you ask me again in few months, I will probably give a different answer. So, let's walk off that that "matter of style" nonsense, mkay pumpkin?

If someone articulated what "rebuilding" is and it meshed with what the Packers are doing in the season of 2023 -- then I would say it's rebuilding. No one has provided a definition that fits what the Packers are doing. As I said, I think my pedantic and semantic thinking has "rebuilding" being something only 2-3 teams are actually doing whereas most have a much more laissez faire definition.

Based on the definitions provided, I just don't see it because it's not much different than most other seasons for the Green Bay Packers. 🤷‍♂️

I think this has ran it's course -- at least for me.

Martha Careful
Member

a year ago

#30

Another opinion - David Bakhtiari

Packers left tackle David Bakhtiari drew a lot of attention in April when he said in an interview that the Packers are rebuilding while continually referring to the team as “they” rather than “we” while discussing the future in Green Bay.
Others in the organization pushed back at the notion of the Packers being a rebuilding team, but Bakhtiari isn’t backing off his stance. He said on Wednesday that there’s no other way to describe a team that is moving from Aaron Rodgers to Jordan Love at quarterback while also employing a lot of other young players on offense.

“How I look at is, it’s disrespectful to say you’re not rebuilding off a Hall of Fame quarterback,” Bakhtiari said, via Rob Demovsky of ESPN.com. “It was disrespectful to say you weren’t rebuilding off of Brett Favre when you moved to Aaron. No one knew Aaron and what he was going to be, so I’m not going to sit here and like pull back those words because that is, when you look at how it’s been building, how we were chasing after it and the cap — there was a bunch of situations that can definitely allude to it — we have a young team.”

While some would see the use of rebuilding as a sign that Bakhtiari doesn’t expect the Packers to be competitive, the veteran went on to use last year’s Seahawks as an example of a team that was both rebuilding and successful at the same time.

“I think the Seahawks rebuild off of Russell [Wilson], look at how that turned out,” Bakhtiari said. “I can always give you the other side of the coin — I don’t know it off the top of my head — but that’s how I look at and it’s a simple way to put it. We can slice it, cut it, make it look like who wants to be the hero or the villain on that word, but that’s really what I mean.”

A healthy Bakhtiari would help any effort to win games this season and he said “I really like how I’m feeling” during an offseason that has included no trips to the operating room after years of knee trouble. Time will tell if his body can hold up, just as it will tell if the Packers can win while charting a new course with Love at the helm.

Go Packers!!!!

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beast (20-Nov) : More knowledge, just like bring in the Jets head coach

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beast (19-Nov) : I wonder if the Packers might to try to bring Douglas in through Milt Hendrickson/Ravens connections

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Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : When you cycle the weeks, the total over remains for season. But you get your W/L for that selected week. Confusing.

packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : the total and percentage are the same as the previous weeks

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Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : Offense gets his ass in gear, this could be good.

Zero2Cool (19-Nov) : Backup QB helped with three wins. Special Teams contributed to three wins.

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