No, it's not. You have no idea if Tolzein would have seen JJ or Cobb on those specific plays and no idea if he would have completed the pass if he did see them. That's ignoring the very obvious problem that play calling would be different depending on how preceding plays unfolded. For all we know, Tolzein may well have missed a play earlier in those drives ending the possession before we even had a chance to miss JJ or Cobb.

There was no one within 10 yards of Jones. If Rodgers had thrown the ball low, that would have been a poor throw as well. It should have been on the numbers. Regardless, Jones had a clear line of sight and was stationary. There's no excuse for not going up and getting that ball.

I find the trend to put all the blame on either Rodgers or the receivers tiresome. Rodgers is paid to make smart decisions, find the open man, and put the ball in the optimal spot to catch it. The receivers are paid to run sharp routes, get open, and catch anything and everything that comes within their wing span. Neither have done their jobs these past 6 weeks. I'm not going to give Jones a pass because Rodgers didn't do his job and I'm not going to give Rodgers a pass because Jones didn't do his either.



I can't take this seriously. There's plenty to criticize Rodgers for without pushing this absurd narrative. Do you honestly think Lacy has played up to his standard last year or the running game in general? Would Tolzein retroactively heal Lacy's sprained ankle? Would Tolzein convince Lacy to make curfew? Starks ran for 12 yards on the first two plays. Starks and Lacy combined for 7 yards on their remaining 12 runs. Does Tolzein fix that issue?

Do you think Cobb is playing up to his standard? Davante Adams couldn't catch a beach ball right now slathered in stick'em. No one has stepped up to fill Jordy's void. Does Tolzein heal Cobb's shoulder or fix Adams' hands?

You simply aren't being objective claiming the only player that has regressed this year is Rodgers.

Originally Posted by: mi_keys 

LOL Ted Thompson gave you 1.35 Million reasons why Tolzein would make those throws. It's not sandlot football [hey, everyone go out I'll hit the open man]. See, the GB offensive play typically sends receivers in patterns to come open at staggered times-Then QB goes thru a progression: the QB looks receiver #1 if he open he throws, if not he goes to #2 [I can explain this in more detail if you need it]. See for whatever play was called, ST would go threw his PROGRESSIONS and if he refused, like AR, or failed to work through his progressions he simply wouldn't be on the team.

In the last few weeks I've charted every one of his snaps in PS over the last 2 years. The guy finds and hits the open man and runs through the progressions as well as Aaron Rodgers can. His anticipation is slightly less, he's not as accurate and cant make some of AR's throws. Oh and BTW, many times he wasn't throwing to #1 receivers.

On the JJ INT, you again don't understand the Offense and are just WRONG. Last year those throws where receiver is laying out of Bounds with feet in bounds or those throws where the WR went to ground to catch ball was not at all the bi-product of inaccuracy THAT IS THE MOST EFFICIENT PLACE TO PUT THE BALL. THAT IS THE WAS IT IS PRACTICED. Sandlot to JV HS ball dont work like this!

You're projecting what know and what you see on TV and somehow assume JJ sees what you see. JJ doesn't know if safety is bearing down and has practiced w/ Aaron Rodgers that if the safety is coming the throw goes LOW, between the knee and ankles! JJ doesn't know exactly what Aaron Rodgers sees, so he's ready to catch ball between the #'s and ankles and thinking about who's closer left or right becuse the throw will skew to the side where defender is furthest away. The idea a WR expects a throw like this to the numbers is patently naive.

As for the rest keep to your vague generalizations and only consider things that support a silly bias and your idol will be secure. I've provided probably 50 factual examples of Aaron Rodgers doings things he NEVER did before; I mean horrific things and you've provided ZERO rebuttal to that. He even admitted he was scared. Again, if the Packers traded Aaron Rodgers for Cutler b4 Denver game, You'd all be screaming TT, YOU ASSHOLE, look what you did. Okay so it's still AR, playing like Cutler, so where's the outrage. We have one of the worst offenses in the NFL over the last 6 games.

Sure the OL isn't playing as well as 2014 and running game lacks at times and injuries and Adams/Cobb have had a few drops and blah blah blah. You need to factor in AR's role in these perceived and real deficiencies and how in the past he has managed to minimize the harm of these clunks in destroying the offense [Note: that's why we love him]. All that stuff was occurring for EACH of the last several years. And every time these clunks occurred it hurt the offense; but didn't turn it to crap. All the clunks drop the O maybe from #3 to #6 or #10 at worst. It is 100% AR's fault the O has gone from #3 to low 20's.

Evaluate each of AR's plays in 1st half in Det. to his usual baseline of performance, educate yourself, then get back to me.

And to address Z2C, yea I take an 80% Aaron Rodgers over 100% Tolzein; But Aaron Rodgers is only 20% of what he was.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 

LOL Ted Thompson gave you 1.35 Million reasons why Tolzein would make those throws. It's not sandlot football [hey, everyone go out I'll hit the open man]. See, the GB offensive play typically sends receivers in patterns to come open at staggered times-Then QB goes thru a progression: the QB looks receiver #1 if he open he throws, if not he goes to #2 [I can explain this in more detail if you need it]. See for whatever play was called, ST would go threw his PROGRESSIONS and if he refused, like AR, or failed to work through his progressions he simply wouldn't be on the team.

In the last few weeks I've charted every one of his snaps in PS over the last 2 years. The guy finds and hits the open man and runs through the progressions as well as Aaron Rodgers can. His anticipation is slightly less, he's not as accurate and cant make some of AR's throws. Oh and BTW, many times he wasn't throwing to #1 receivers.

On the JJ INT, you again don't understand the Offense and are just WRONG. Last year those throws where receiver is laying out of Bounds with feet in bounds or those throws where the WR went to ground to catch ball was not at all the bi-product of inaccuracy THAT IS THE MOST EFFICIENT PLACE TO PUT THE BALL. THAT IS THE WAS IT IS PRACTICED. Sandlot to JV HS ball dont work like this!

You're projecting what know and what you see on TV and somehow assume JJ sees what you see. JJ doesn't know if safety is bearing down and has practiced w/ Aaron Rodgers that if the safety is coming the throw goes LOW, between the knee and ankles! JJ doesn't know exactly what Aaron Rodgers sees, so he's ready to catch ball between the #'s and ankles and thinking about who's closer left or right becuse the throw will skew to the side where defender is furthest away. The idea a WR expects a throw like this to the numbers is patently naive.

As for the rest keep to your vague generalizations and only consider things that support a silly bias and your idol will be secure. I've provided probably 50 factual examples of Aaron Rodgers doings things he NEVER did before; I mean horrific things and you've provided ZERO rebuttal to that. He even admitted he was scared. Again, if the Packers traded Aaron Rodgers for Cutler b4 Denver game, You'd all be screaming TT, YOU ASSHOLE, look what you did. Okay so it's still AR, playing like Cutler, so where's the outrage. We have one of the worst offenses in the NFL over the last 6 games.

Sure the OL isn't playing as well as 2014 and running game lacks at times and injuries and Adams/Cobb have had a few drops and blah blah blah. You need to factor in AR's role in these perceived and real deficiencies and how in the past he has managed to minimize the harm of these clunks in destroying the offense [Note: that's why we love him]. All that stuff was occurring for EACH of the last several years. And every time these clunks occurred it hurt the offense; but didn't turn it to crap. All the clunks drop the O maybe from #3 to #6 or #10 at worst. It is 100% AR's fault the O has gone from #3 to low 20's.

Evaluate each of AR's plays in 1st half in Det. to his usual baseline of performance, educate yourself, then get back to me.

And to address Z2C, yea I take an 80% Aaron Rodgers over 100% Tolzein; But Aaron Rodgers is only 20% of what he was.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 

LOL Ted Thompson gave you 1.35 Million reasons why Tolzein would make those throws.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 

It's not sandlot football [hey, everyone go out I'll hit the open man].

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 

See, the GB offensive play typically sends receivers in patterns to come open at staggered times-Then QB goes thru a progression: the QB looks receiver #1 if he open he throws, if not he goes to #2 [I can explain this in more detail if you need it]. See for whatever play was called, ST would go threw his PROGRESSIONS and if he refused, like AR, or failed to work through his progressions he simply wouldn't be on the team.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 

In the last few weeks I've charted every one of his snaps in PS over the last 2 years.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 

The guy finds and hits the open man and runs through the progressions as well as Aaron Rodgers can. His anticipation is slightly less, he's not as accurate and cant make some of AR's throws. Oh and BTW, many times he wasn't throwing to #1 receivers.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 

On the JJ INT, you again don't understand the Offense and are just WRONG.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 

You're projecting what know and what you see on TV and somehow assume JJ sees what you see. JJ doesn't know if safety is bearing down and has practiced w/ Aaron Rodgers that if the safety is coming the throw goes LOW, between the knee and ankles!

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 

JJ doesn't know exactly what Aaron Rodgers sees, so he's ready to catch ball between the #'s and ankles and thinking about who's closer left or right becuse the throw will skew to the side where defender is furthest away. The idea a WR expects a throw like this to the numbers is patently naive.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 

As for the rest keep to your vague generalizations and only consider things that support a silly bias and your idol will be secure.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 

I've provided probably 50 factual examples of Aaron Rodgers doings things he NEVER did before; I mean horrific things and you've provided ZERO rebuttal to that.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 

He even admitted he was scared. Again, if the Packers traded Aaron Rodgers for Cutler b4 Denver game, You'd all be screaming TT, YOU ASSHOLE, look what you did. Okay so it's still AR, playing like Cutler, so where's the outrage.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 

We have one of the worst offenses in the NFL over the last 6 games.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 

Sure the OL isn't playing as well as 2014 and running game lacks at times and injuries and Adams/Cobb have had a few drops and blah blah blah.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 

You need to factor in AR's role in these perceived and real deficiencies and how in the past he has managed to minimize the harm of these clunks in destroying the offense [Note: that's why we love him].

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 

All that stuff was occurring for EACH of the last several years.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 

And every time these clunks occurred it hurt the offense; but didn't turn it to crap. All the clunks drop the O maybe from #3 to #6 or #10 at worst. It is 100% AR's fault the O has gone from #3 to low 20's.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 

Evaluate each of AR's plays in 1st half in Det. to his usual baseline of performance, educate yourself, then get back to me.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 

YOU'RE ALL WRONG!!! We need to start not Aaron, not Scott, but Brett Hundley!!!


Schooled you were yes.


Bahahahahahhha

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 

Your post is condescending as usual, everyone your legitimately arguing with knows what QB progressions are so why even go there. Also, half your arguments ramble angrily as if you furiously headbutted them into the keyboard rather than typed them out with care. You claim my arguments are "vague generalizations"? I have used cold hard statistics while you have responded with gut feelings and personal observations(I dont care how good Tolzien looks on the practice squad). I 100% agree Rodgers has been under performing all season but benching him is not the answer.

Originally Posted by: voiceofreason 

I wouldn't say condescending; being a bit more remedial was IMHO necessary. One "who knows," knows that QBs that go thru their progressions don't miss "seeing" their receivers. And note your and his latest response foisted the idea that an evaluation can't be done on 100 snaps. MI Keys is only correct on this concept if the analysis is purely statistical because a larger sample is needed. If you watch a QB do his job for 100 plays and grade how he: reacts/avoids a free rusher; audibles to runs or passes; throws accurately; goes throw progressions; looks off his receivers; whether he "breaks;" sees and hits hot read on blitz; throws ball away to avoids a sack; extends plays on those RARE occasions that all receivers are covered; etc etc etc. If he's proficient 100%/20% of the time, that's more than enough info to properly evaluate that a guy can play/sucks. And this gets you to 90% of what the Staff knows about him [if you guess correctly as to what the responsibility was in the play].

Aaron Rodgers is doing bad? Really? Sounds like an interesting debate [rolling eyes] 😂. Do we really have to come to a forum and post that?

I think what's interesting is WHY and WHAT SHOULD BE DONE.

Mike McCarthy correctly said "stats are for losers." What Mike McCarthy is really saying is stats are used by people to portend knowledge and/or support illogically arrived at opinions [which could by chance be true]. Mike McCarthy is saying you dont grade in this case, Aaron Rodgers by Passer rating; but you evaluate him on how well he performed WITHIN THE SCHEME.

Let me give you an example: a great WCO QB goes 22-24-160 and dinks and dunk to a 1st at the 1 and RB scores 3 running TD's his rating is 94; If one of the INCs was a perfect pass was dropped/deflected and INT, the PR is 77; if he throws 3 TD passes his rating is 134. The QB's value in the scheme is identical in all 3 situations, yet his rating goes from 77 to 134.

So go ahead, spout your worthless stats; curse at those who disagree with your opinion that we're 12-4 w/ a QB w/ a 95 PR. It's up to you. But what I'm tying to do is get you to realize you dont know what your talking about.

Here two things: (1) I'm not you, dont think like you, nor react like you in anyway; (2) If you want to evaluate whether Tolzein should replace Aaron Rodgers the reasonable voice begins the with an EVALUATION OF HOW THEY COMPARABLY PERFORM, not cursing out superficial stats.

I have spent several hours preparing and have posting some very detailed analyses of AR's performance w/in he scheme. EG posted evaluations of every INC in one game. So your vague generalization allegation is, well let's say, misplaced. My in depth analysis of AR's play leads to one immutable fact: AR's problems are attitude based.

And again, I'm not arguing that Tolzein should replace AR; we cant win the SB with Tolzein. But we cant win the SB with this version of Aaron Rodgers either. So what the fu%% should be done? When Crosby had the yips a few years back, he was working his butt off to get over it; benching him would do no good. Lacy lost motivation, benching him at least temporarily motivated him to 2 really good performances [that BTW, just happen to coincide w/ 2 good stat games]. I'm 90% convinced AR's problem is a bad attitude; his yips come from him knowing deep down that he's not as mentally well prepared. Aaron Rodgers needs to know if he doesnt perform within the game plan; he'll be replaced; if he thinks himself untouchable and is, we're going to be very depressed Packer fans over the next 8 years.

So, if you want to discuss the topic of AR's replacement with me; then you will need to bring opinion/argument based on real football talk/analysis not cursing, insults and/or mindless stat spouting.

Of the 2014 games I evaluated last year to date [i didn't do any of these evaluations last year]; there are 3 games that not one single INC was attributable to AR; worst game 4!!!!! Two failures to miss hot reads in 9 games! TWO. that's why he was rarely blitzed. Those are cold hard stats!

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 

I bet Tolzien would take the ball from under center on third and 1. That's the type of thing we believe Aaron is unwilling to do, because he's such a SUPERSTAR.

Originally Posted by: nerdmann