Nonstopdrivel
16 years ago
Cheesey raises some interesting points that I will address later.

Suffice it to say for now that I think Saddam Hussein was the right man for the job of keeping Iraq together. Now, given that I am also a pragmatist, and given that the methods required to accomplish the task were evil, I submit that the attempt to force nationhood on the unwilling people of Iraq is itself evil (or at least misguided).

Again, I'll address this more later, as it all ties into the Islamic concept of (Jihad).
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yooperfan
16 years ago
Cheesey and divel(non stop) ahve a great dialog here.
I cant't wait to read more.
I love this discussion, It's a learning experience.
Cheesey
16 years ago

Cheesey raises some interesting points that I will address later.

Suffice it to say for now that I think Saddam Hussein was the right man for the job of keeping Iraq together. Now, given that I am also a pragmatist, and given that the methods required to accomplish the task were evil, I submit that the attempt to force nationhood on the unwilling people of Iraq is itself evil (or at least misguided).

Again, I'll address this more later, as it all ties into the Islamic concept of (Jihad).

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:


Iraq is a crazy country. It seems there are so many nut cases there, I can see what you mean. But the country wasn't really held together by Saddam. He took everything, leaving his "people" nothing. He got rich, everyone else poor. No "middle class". If he liked you, and you obeyed him, you had a chance. Otherwise, you and your family are done. He even killed his own son in law. PURE evil. On par with Hitler and Paul Pot. (Not sure if i spelled it right). If given the chance to build nukes, Saddam was the kind of guy to use them, without a second thought.
Thats why we HAVE to keep a close eye on people like that. If we don't, we will end up at their mercy. And mercy is not their strong suit.

Here you could disagree with president Bush, and live to tell about it. Do that in Iraq, and you and your family are dead. Maybe even your whole town.
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Cheesey
16 years ago

Don't worry about offending anyone here. I've offended and have been offended by different posters but we're all friends still. It's all a learning experience, and self-censoring is actually hindering us from learning more about you.

"Rockmolder" wrote:



That, I might jump into later on. It has its reasons.

I think you might be right about to tolerant and your censorship story reminded me of something I saw on the news just a day earlier. Now this guy is taking it to extremes, but I think it has some relevancy to this thread.

Geert Wilders, the politician that made Fitna (Don't know if you heared about it, it was all over the news here) made some remarks and will now be sued. He said something around the lines of 'The Koran is just as bad as Mein Kampf'. Like I said he's taking it to extremes.

On a talkshow later that day, he said he regretted his remarks and appolagized to the Germans. Now, I don't totally agree with this man, but it's on the thin line between freedom of speech and offending to another culture.

I think he will be killed soon, like Theo van Gogh and Pim Fortuyn.

Where I'm going, I have no idea, it just reminded me off this. I had something that was relevant, but I'm watching Family Guy and I forgot. I'll edit this thread as soon as I'll remember.

"zombieslayer" wrote:


I finally found the film "Fitna".
It's hard to argue with what he showed in that film. It's factual. I think one of the main problems is, there are radicals in all "religions". In the Muslim religion, the number of radicals is extremely high compared to others. This makes it dangerous for ANYONE that isn't Muslim. They had Wilders on TV today. He's being charged with "hate speech". Even though the Muslims are carrying around signs saying "Kill Geert Wilders!" and so on. They can threaten his very life for a film he made, which he backs up with what the radicals have done and are still doing, but they can threaten to kill the man (and they would if they could get their hands on him) and they arn't charged with "hate speech?" Isn't that a double standard???
Here's a link to the Fitna film. Take the 16 or so minutes and watch it......it may open some eyes as to whats going on.
http://truthbeknown.com/fitnareview.html 
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Rockmolder
16 years ago
That is quite a big issue here right now, Cheesey.

He himself doesn't think that anything will happen. He says it'll drag on for years and eventually he'll get off free. The government didn't want to sue him at first, but they had no choice looking at our constitution and this getting awfully close to racism. The same reason Pim Fortuyn wanted to change it.

I still have no idea what I wanted to say at that point though, damn that Peter and his 'shananigans'.

Anyway, I don't think you can just say that Islam is a bad religion in its whole. I mean, you'd be throwing rocks at gay people and burning condoms, was it not for a more modern interpetation of the bible. I believe that that is one of the biggest problems. They take the Koran seriously, as if every written word is true and should be lived by at all times. If they would go for the message behind the story, I think there wouldn't be that much extremists.

Now, I have to say that it gets quite scary when you hear about these guys blowing themselfs up, shooting everyone that disagrees with them. You can't say anything about them, yet, they burn all kinds of flags, dolls of people and christian things. Like you said though, they have some rotten apples, albeit that there are alot more than with other religions.
Cheesey
16 years ago
THats the problem Rock......there is a HUGE radical Muslim group that carrys out the killings and so on. If they find gays, they kill them. I don't agree with homosexuality, but i see it as sin,and ONLY sin, and EVERYONE sins. I have gay friends, and they know my opinions on it. I love them, and want whats best for them. I do NOT want to kill them.
I sin every day, i'm FAR from perfect, and i know it.
If you watch the film, it shows where if you don't convert to Islam, they have the choice to kill the unbelievers.
That would be like me going door to door, preaching the gospel, and if someone refuses to convert, i can just kill them.
There are of course MANY Muslim people that don't carry it that far, but like i said, there is WAY too big of a group that think that way. Many of their leaders are shown in "Fitna" preaching to do just that. The leader of Iran is shown in that film saying pretty much just that.
If President Obama said the kinds of things the leader of Iran says, do you think he wouldn't be removed from the Presidency IMMEDIATLY? I think they were yank him out of office right away.
But the radical way leads the way in those places.
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zombieslayer
16 years ago
Fitna was very hard to watch. It actually took me a few tries to get through it. It wasn't bad, but it will pull your emotions out like something I haven't seen in years.

This is the thing. Let's say I said something horrible about Jews. At worst, I'd lose my job. Let's say I said something horrible about Christians. At worst, I'd get smacked upside the head. Let's say I say something horrible about Buddhists. They'd just shake their head and continue going back to what they were doing.

You can get killed for saying something bad about Islam. It's the only religion you get killed for insulting. It is also a religion you get killed for leaving (besides cults, but we're talking about major religions, not cults). It is also by far the most misogynistic religion out there. Hindu used to be up there too but they got more "civilized" and that widow burning rarely happens nowadays.
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Cheesey
16 years ago

Fitna was very hard to watch. It actually took me a few tries to get through it. It wasn't bad, but it will pull your emotions out like something I haven't seen in years.

This is the thing. Let's say I said something horrible about Jews. At worst, I'd lose my job. Let's say I said something horrible about Christians. At worst, I'd get smacked upside the head. Let's say I say something horrible about Buddhists. They'd just shake their head and continue going back to what they were doing.

You can get killed for saying something bad about Islam. It's the only religion you get killed for insulting. It is also a religion you get killed for leaving (besides cults, but we're talking about major religions, not cults). It is also by far the most misogynistic religion out there. Hindu used to be up there too but they got more "civilized" and that widow burning rarely happens nowadays.

"zombieslayer" wrote:


Thats just it.......they are like the KKK, but they can get away with their hate and crimes by hiding behind "religion".
I don't see how they can use "god" as an excuse to perform acts of terrorism.
Then they complain because a man puts out proof of whats going on, and they would kill him if they can get to him.
Yet Wilders is the one charged with a crime?
Did he say "kill all muslims?" No....he just showed what they are doing.
It doesn't make ANY sense to me.......but i'm just an "infidel", so what would i know???
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