Ron Wolf: Legend. Ted Thompson: Failure.· Page 4

uffda udfa
Veteran Member Topic Starter

9 years ago

Mar 29, 1995
Dolphins trade Keith Jackson to Green Bay

Packers got : TE Keith Jackson AND Dolphins 4th round selection (117th overall?)
Dolphins got: Packers 2nd round selection (53rd overall?)

If the Packers has used up their 1st round on Jimmy Graham, they wouldn't have had Ha'Sean Clinton-Dix and most likely would not have used their 3rd round selection on TE Richard Rodgers
http://www.packershome.com/Packers/Draft

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool

Oh, we wouldn't had the guy who Troy Aikman stated over and over he had no idea how he missed batting down that 2 point conversion attempt, where, if he had, our FG would've amounted to a W instead of trip to OT and an eventual L and a trip to the SB? That guy? Or...Richard freaking Rodgers???? Sorry, I'll take Jimmy Graham over those two any and every day of the week.

Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."

uffda udfa
Veteran Member Topic Starter

9 years ago

#32

First, Wolf traded a 2nd rounder not a first. A team drafting 1 over 2 will get a player 38% better [if 2002 and 2006 are representative of the marginal difference between 1st and 2nd players].

Second, Jackson's contracts used about 2.5% of the cap not over 6% [He was less than half price of Graham.

Third, this is a different era; signing Jackson cost Wolf no players; signing Graham cost Seattle 25% of their legion of boom [Maxell].

Fourth, and most important Graham sucks and Jackson was great. If all condemns were Grahams there’d 62 Billion people in the world and a lot more VD; Jackson was a devastating blocker and receiver...a complete TE. If Jackson was in this no-holding era playing for Brees; he catch 3000 yards/ season until he was triple covered every play. Oh and did I mention Graham couldn't block Keith's grandma. Graham is a nice receiver; but not a difference maker. The NO offense averaged slightly more yards per play the 2 yrs before Graham v. the 5 years Graham has been there and when Graham misses a game there is no appreciable downturn in the O.

On top of that Little Jimmy got his big contract, he’s now very very very very special. Last year, Graham gets warned b4 a game if you spike it's a 15 yrd penalty... He spikes it, boom 15 yards. Later in the SAME game, what does he do? Ya spikes it again...LOL...30 yards in penalties against his team so little childish jimmy could do his TD celebration...too bad he doesn't work as hard on his blocking as TD celebrations. Now do ya think that tool works like a real man or a little kiddie in the film room? Peyton wanted him OUT! Saints were hoping to get a 4th for Graham and prayed for a 3rd; but they spotted a desperate buyer; and took not only a 1st; but got a top 3 Center in the game. Unbelievable!!!

Wolf would so much as trade a pubic hair from his left nut for Graham.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn

Where did I say he traded a 1 for Keith Jackson? I said a high pick. A 2nd is a high pick.

You sure like making assumptions. A little revisionist of you to say that the Seahawks could've just dealt a 4th for Graham. I'm sure the back to back SB appearing Seahawks just decided to start with ...hey, I'll give you a 1st and our C. Yes, that is surely the most plausible of all scenarios (because it helps your argument). My goodness, Barf. C'mon, man.

Jimmy Graham changes games in the positive sense. I can only imagine what we could do with a real TE instead of slugs like Q and RR. Just the appearance of a legit TE changes how D's play us. Finley was more hype than reality but he changed the way we were played on O opening things up for us. That kinda comes in handy vs. the Seattle's of the world.

If Ron Wolf had Chewy and then grabbed Keith Jackson...I think it's more than plausible to believe he'd add a Jimmy Graham with as bare as TT's TE cupboard is.

RW may have done the same for Manziel as he did for Favre. I wonder what old Ron thinks of Johnny Football? The point is on that is he did something perceived as CRAZY. Did a single soul on this forum or elsewhere envision what Brett Favre became for our franchise? No. Brett, himself, didn't.

Ron had a balls out approach to winning that landed us in back to back bowls and if not for the non Rice fumble we were probably going back for a 3rd time. We were a dominant franchise over those years with Reggie on D and Brett on O. Ted Thompson has failed to provide the juice on D for Aaron to win or even get there again. Don't forget, it was our sieve like D that was shredded in OT that sent Seattle to the SB. If we were a good D we would've gotten the ball back for Aaron and we win and go to the show.

Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."

DoddPower
Veteran Member

9 years ago

#33

It's good to be a Packers fan. We get to debate between Ron Wolf and Ted Thompson and Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers (among others beyond recent history, too). Other franchises must be very jealous.

Barfarn
Senior Member

9 years ago

#34

A little revisionist of you to say that the Seahawks could've just dealt a 4th for Graham.

Jimmy Graham changes games in the positive sense. I can only imagine what we could do with a real TE instead of slugs like Q and RR.

If Ron Wolf had Chewy and then grabbed Keith Jackson...I think it's more than plausible to believe he'd add a Jimmy Graham with as bare as TT's TE cupboard is.

Ron had a balls out approach to winning

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa

Now when I tell ya a player is no good, i may be wrong, but know my basis is objective; please respond w/ objective info.

Graham is a cancer and just not that good and this is why NO was going to dump him. Graham had a receiving rating outside the top 10 of TEs in 2014 and he can’t block a marshmallow. So his overall rating and value is worse.

Ever wonder how important his catches were and what would it be like if Brees wasn’t throwing to him. Or did he catch a lot of 10 yard passes on 3rd and 30 or 40 yard passes down by 21 w/ 20 seconds left in Game? The Outsiders have a stats that adjusts for all of this: DVOA [Defense-adjusted Value Over Average, which represents value, per play, over an average TE in the same game situations]. Graham's rank was #17 and if we add in blocking he’s even worse. Quarles is ranked #21, he’s not the greatest blocker but much better than Graham. As a complete TE, Q is at least as valuable as Graham for 1/5th the $$$ and minus the prima donna BS crap; plus Q has promised to be as good as Gronk this year...LOL .

In the two years b4 Graham [2008-9] NO averaged 6516 yrds and 6.3 yrds/play
In the 5 years he was playing NO averaged 6596 Yrds and 6.08 yrds/play.

Brees played 16 games each year but 2009, when he played 15, the starters were all rested the last game of 2009, so this made stats for 2008-9 look artificially worse.

Graham only missed 1 game [V. TB in 2012] It was an important division game as both teams finished 9-7. NO racked up 458 yrds and their average w/ Graham was 411. Now TB had #29 D and were 37 yrds/gm from #15. So adjusting for that, NO offense did slightly better than their average w/o Graham than they did w/ him.

Again w/ or without Jimmy Brees does his thing, if Graham played for Cleveland you wouldn’t even know who he was! The guy is NOT a difference maker as a receiver and he’s a putz.

NO was going to cut him because they know they don’t need him; just like w/ Grubbs [PFF had Grubbs rated 11 of 82 in 2013 and 35 of 78 in 2014 and in 2012 signed for 5 year 36M] and the Chiefs got this guy for a 5th rounder. A FITH ROUNDER!!!! Graham is no more valuable than Grubbs and no team would have given up a 3rd for him; let alone a first and a top 3 center.

PS: What an insult to Wolf, he was not a rabid maniac doing deals like Mr. Hyde. He was methodical and disciplined and stayed true to his philosophy and he hired guys just like him: EG TT. His kid is just like him methodical and disciplined and works with Ted Thompson like a hand in glove. And in his book Wolf hinted as to how his style would need to adapt to the Cap. Just remember if one trashes Ted Thompson [as opposed to critiquing one of his moves/nonmoves], they're spitting in the face of Wolf. Favre was not a "balls out" gamble. Wolf doesn't go get Favre if his coach is Glanville; of course he would never hire a rabid lunatic motivational guy like that; because Wolf believed in treating his players like men. Wolf saw Favre's desire to win and talent and knew it would mesh w/ Sherm Lewis, Gruden, Mariuchi, Holmgren, etc.

nerdmann
Premier Member

9 years ago

#35

Ron had a balls out approach to winning that landed us in back to back bowls and if not for the non Rice fumble we were probably going back for a 3rd time. We were a dominant franchise over those years with Reggie on D and Brett on O. Ted Thompson has failed to provide the juice on D for Aaron to win or even get there again. Don't forget, it was our sieve like D that was shredded in OT that sent Seattle to the SB. If we were a good D we would've gotten the ball back for Aaron and we win and go to the show.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa

That "balls out" approach also resulted in him hiring Ray Rhodes without even doing an interview, thus preventing him from finding out that in the intervening years since being our DC, he had entered into therapy after saying that losing at home was like "having someone break in and sodomize your family."

Therapist mellowed him out and he became kind of a 9 to 5er. Didn't work out very well, and that's how the team got handed over to Bert. Rhodes pretty much put Bert in charge.

Then when Wolf had to shitcan Rhodes after one season, no one who was qualified wanted to touch that job with a ten foot pole. So Wolf hired Sherman, who wasn't ready. And who also would not stand up to Bert.

“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”

uffda udfa
Veteran Member Topic Starter

9 years ago

#36

I'm glad to see Barfarn is still telling the world what Wolf would do and "knew"... Ron surely didn't "know" Brett would work out in Green Bay. It was a major gamble that paid off handsomely. It doesn't diminish the risk on the front side because of how it turned out.

As for Wolf being balls out having a single thing to do with his Ray Rhodes hire, I'm not sure I follow that logic. Ron was balls out to win and acquired the players needed to do so. Hiring Ray Rhodes was a risky move that didn't pay off for him like the Favre move that did.

Ron had personality and passion. We have a robot running the show in Green Bay now in TT. Sincerely, it's like the difference between Team USA in 1980 and the Soviet team. I prefer my sports chock full of passion like Team USA was in 1980 and like Ron Wolf. I don't care for subdued roboticism like we saw in the old Soviet hockey team and currently in our GM. Ron would see Aaron's window and would maximize it...TT will just sit on his hands and hope Aaron is enough...again. Shameful. Made worse by the adoring and applauding fans while 12's window closes more and more each season. I can't imagine RW rolling into this season with what we have at ILB or TE. Just can't see it or even the DL.

Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."

greengold
Member

9 years ago

#37

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa

That's no worse than claiming the whole world knew Aaron Rodgers was a HOF QB before he was drafted, which is obviously why he fell to the end of the 1rst.

As for Wolf being balls out having a single thing to do with his Ray Rhodes hire, I'm not sure I follow that logic. Ron was balls out to win and acquired the players needed to do so. Hiring Ray Rhodes was a risky move that didn't pay off for him like the Favre move that did.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa

And Wolf didn't have the same salary cap to worry about and STILL only won one Superbowl!

Ron had personality and passion. We have a robot running the show in Green Bay now in TT. Sincerely, it's like the difference between Team USA in 1980 and the Soviet team. I prefer my sports chock full of passion like Team USA was in 1980 and like Ron Wolf. I don't care for subdued roboticism like we saw in the old Soviet hockey team and currently in our GM. Ron would see Aaron's window and would maximize it...

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa

Different eras, different styles. The only thing guaranteed about free agents from other teams is they are more expensive than your own guys.

TT will just sit on his hands and hope Aaron is enough...again. Shameful. Made worse by the adoring and applauding fans while 12's window closes more and more each season. I can't imagine RW rolling into this season with what we have at ILB or TE. Just can't see it or even the DL.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa

HOLY CRAP! Ted Thompson will sit on his hands for the next FIVE months and roll into the season with what we have at ILB, TE, and DL?!?!?!?!?! That is horrible! Thank god we have you to inform us about what Ted Thompson sees and "knows." :crazy:

uffda udfa
Veteran Member Topic Starter

9 years ago

#38

That's no worse than claiming the whole world knew Aaron Rodgers was a HOF QB before he was drafted, which is obviously why he fell to the end of the 1rst.
And Wolf didn't have the same salary cap to worry about and STILL only won one Superbowl!
Different eras, different styles. The only thing guaranteed about free agents from other teams is they are more expensive than your own guys.
HOLY CRAP! Ted Thompson will sit on his hands for the next FIVE months and roll into the season with what we have at ILB, TE, and DL?!?!?!?!?! That is horrible! Thank god we have you to inform us about what Ted Thompson sees and "knows." :crazy:

Originally Posted by: greengold

Total hatchet job. I never said everyone knew Rodgers was a HOF QB...EVERYONE did know he was bandied about as the top overall along with Alex Smith. A Peyton Leaf type situation. Just a terrible job of stating what I said.

Wolf was in back to back SB's and should've had a 3rd straight if not for the terrible non Rice fumble call that cost us that win in SF. TT's team hasn't been back to back or even close to it.
Ted Thompson will sit on his hands. He'll draft like EVERY SINGLE GM will and that'll be it...oh, a few UDFA's in from Nowhere St. and he's done. Wolf would make things happen not wait for them to happen like TT. OH, I am sorry...TT did sign the LB from the IFL. That is my bad. He's gone out of his way to fix our deficiencies. Count on rooks again or the 2nd year jump like every other franchise. Great plan.

Yes, these are different approaches...I loved Ron Wolf. I don't care all that much for TT...don't hate him but think he's grossly overrated by the throng on this board.

Ted Thompson sits on his hands per former GM: "because they’ve had 25 fricking years of great quarterbacks. Of course it works. Try it without a special quarterback."

Barfarn
Senior Member

9 years ago

#39

I'm glad to see Barfarn is still telling the world what Wolf would do and "knew"... Ron surely didn't "know" Brett would work out in Green Bay. It was a major gamble that paid off handsomely. It doesn't diminish the risk on the front side because of how it turned out.

Ron had personality and passion. We have a robot running the show in Green Bay now in TT. Sincerely, it's like the difference between Team USA in 1980 and the Soviet team. I prefer my sports chock full of passion like Team USA was in 1980 and like Ron Wolf. I don't care for subdued roboticism like we saw in the old Soviet hockey team and currently in our GM. Ron would see Aaron's window and would maximize it...TT will just sit on his hands and hope Aaron is enough...again. Shameful. Made worse by the adoring and applauding fans while 12's window closes more and more each season. I can't imagine RW rolling into this season with what we have at ILB or TE. Just can't see it or even the DL.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa

First, on knowing the mind of Wolf. I'm only parroting what Wolf said himself. Wolf said Favre was by far the #1 player on his '91 draft board and saw him as a player that comes around once every 10 years. Wolf trusted his own scouting and being true to it and disciplined, there was no risk in trading a #19 pick for a 1 in 10 yr player. NONE!!! [well adjusting for what every 3rd grader knows that the draft is not a certainty]!

And the FACTS in this thread establish that Graham is: a mediocre player; way over paid; not wanted by the team that knows him best; and a jerk. Ergo, Wolf would never trade a 1st rndr for a mediocre troublemaking player, he said so in his book.

Second, you excoriate me for claiming to know Wolf's mind on trades [a misrepresentation]; but then claim to know TT's mind and entire personality [A robot] by watching a few press conferences. I now see there are two duplicitous sets of rules: one for Uffa and 1 for everyone else...LOL Ever see him in a social situation? Do you think Spock would win 3 execs of the yr? LLAP [Live long and prosper] LOL. Ted Thompson is funny and charming and every coach and front office guy knows it.

He's not chatty Kathy during press conferences and the good fans dont want a Mr. personality GM blabbing details of his draft board; and making public player personal moves. Schneider said his 2015 draft board has 16 graded as a 1st rounder and unbelievably confirmed that Bennett wants more money. A GM that thrusts this stuff into the public is an incompetent fool; it only makes negotiations harder and creatures fractures on the team.

Third, AND REALLY THINK ON THIS. Seattle fans get loud because they recognize that they can literally affect the game to the Hawks benefit. Now isn't this a fan's dream, to be able to physically help their team? Now ask yourself: does my attitude have any tendency to help the team or hurt it?

DoddPower
Veteran Member

9 years ago

#40

TT's team hasn't been back to back or even close to it.

Originally Posted by: uffda udfa

Wait, the Packers have only been close to a Super Bowl for one season? I seem to recall two other opportunities where the Packers were very close to getting back to the Super Bowl under Ted Thompson (two NFC championship games that could have and should have been won by the Packers, imo). Who cares about back-to-back appearances. All that matters is Super Bowl wins, not consecutive wins or especially consecutive appearances. Winning the Super Bowl every other season would be fantastic.

The reality is that Ted Thompson and Ron Wolf have won an equal number of championships, and Ted Thompson's team actually has a chance to win more, which is something that Ron Wolf can no longer say.

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