Since69
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16 years ago
I know the defense cost us a lot of games last year when we were unable to make critical stops late in games, but let's look at it from another direction.

Seven of our ten losses last year were by 4 points or less - exactly the difference between a touchdown and a field goal. If, just one time, in each of those games we could have managed to punch the ball in rather than settling for 3, we'd have won 5 more games outright (Falcons, Titans, Vikings, Texans and Bears) and gone to overtime against the Panthers and Jaguars.

How much of that is due to ineffective (read: conservative) playcalling?

Too many times this year, McCarthy has gotten too conservative too early, seemingly saying to himself, "Hmmm, a three-point lead is enough. Let's just run it from here on out."

OK, those probably weren't his exact thoughts, but he definitely switched from "attack" to "parry" once we had a lead. Philbin is the OC in name only, since we know that McCarthy does the playcalling. Do we need someone more capable at OC? Someone McCarthy trusts? Someone with more of a killer instinct?
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gakko
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16 years ago
I would like to see Jeff Jagodzinsky brought back in some fashion.
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gakko
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16 years ago
assistant head coach for offense perhaps
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blueleopard
16 years ago
Considering how weak our running game was this season, you can't fault McCarthy for making conservative calls--especially with a first-year QB behind center.

I don't care how great Aaron Rodgers was this season, he's still not a polished quarterback.

One of the reasons is that he still has yet to feel the rush. Granted, half of this is the offensive line's fault, but Rodgers hasn't really "made" plays. It's the receivers doing the work.

Favre had uncanny instincts and had the intelligence to change the play during the play. Sometimes, it led to interceptions, but most of the time--it led to defensive confusion.

McCarthy is making the same playcalls, but I have yet to see Rodgers really adjust to what's happening on the field. Eventually, over time, Rodgers will stop thinking on the field. He's the type of quarterback who hates to have his completion percentage below 70, but eventually he'll have to make more trust throws than smart throws.

All that can only be gained from experience.

As for the offense in general... I really think the Packers need a speed back. They haven't had that since Ahman Green was in his prime. I was really hoping we'd draft Steve Slaton last year, but that didn't happen.

I also wouldn't mind Ted Thompson attempting to trade for Tony Gonzalez again--especially since Carl Peterson is gone as GM.
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zombieslayer
16 years ago
Actually, I'm fine with everything on our O except for the line. Beef up our line, and we should be able to take this O to the next level.

We have one of the best WR core in the NFL. Grant is an above average back. He started slowly, but picked up in the 2nd half of the season.

I'd rather have the offseason spent on beefing up our D.
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MassPackersFan
16 years ago

One of the reasons is that he still has yet to feel the rush. Granted, half of this is the offensive line's fault, but Rodgers hasn't really "made" plays. It's the receivers doing the work.

"blueleopard" wrote:



Eh I'd have to disagree. There were a pretty large number of times where Rodgers scrambled and made something happen when nothing was there - Far more often than I expected out of a first year starter. Do we forget the jump pass or the magic behind the back TD pass so quickly?

On offense, I'm fine with most everything. I'd like to see Brandon Jackson get more carries. I would like to see us try to transition towards the post-Clifton era (as much as that will suck). Give me a balanced offense with a healthy dose of play-action and I'm happy.
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Since69
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16 years ago
Let me clarify. I think we're fine with the offensive players we've got (with the possible exception, as zombieslayer said, of our O-Line).

I was talking about coaching. If we'd had a more aggressive OC, one that went for the throat instead of protecting a lead, I think we would have won a lot more games.

Do we, in your opinion, need a real offensive coordinator?
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Stevetarded
16 years ago
The problem with our offense when it comes to settling for 3 is the red zone rushing. We couldn't punch the ball in the endzone nomatter who was carrying it. I would like to see some statistics of how many 0 or negative yard runs we had in the red zone this year because it was bad. To win those 7 games by scoring TD's Rodgers would have basically had to end the season with around 35 passing TD's, I think that is quite a bit to ask.
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zombieslayer
16 years ago

The problem with our offense when it comes to settling for 3 is the red zone rushing. We couldn't punch the ball in the endzone nomatter who was carrying it. I would like to see some statistics of how many 0 or negative yard runs we had in the red zone this year because it was bad. To win those 7 games by scoring TD's Rodgers would have basically had to end the season with around 35 passing TD's, I think that is quite a bit to ask.

"Stevetarded" wrote:



A few months ago, someone posted AR 's red zone stats and they were off the charts. Taking a look at those stats, I was thinking "why the **** are we not putting the ball in Aaron's hands when we're in the RZ?"

So if the run isn't working in the RZ, screw it. Throw it in. Aaron doesn't turn the ball over. We have the receiving corps to do it. Donald Driver is The Man at 4 yard receptions. Let's utilize our strengths.

I don't think MM was aggressive in the RZ enough in '08.
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Pack93z
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16 years ago
Here is my take on the offense.. if there is a place of scrutiny it would have to be the offensive line and more notably the run blocking.

We haven't seen much development in terms of growth along the line.. We have only seen really Spitz improve over the term of MM and company.

We have seen a struggling Colledge playing out of a natural position and little growth from him as a guard. Albeit, in his stints as a tackle, improvement from day one to now is very notable.

We have seen Wells remain steady but less than ideal arm length and extension... but he hasn't improved and has plateaued so to speak.

You have Barbre, an athletic player that looks to have all the qualities to play in this league, but hasn't improved enough to secure much playing time.

Moll hasn't taken much of a step forward since his rookie season..

We have churned through Witticker, White, Coston whom have stuck around and failed to take a hold and improve.

That isn't a very healthy track record of developing successfully within.. position coaches there, IMO, should have been evaluated heavily and maybe a change made accordingly. Spitz, Moll and Colledge got extensive playing time and should be farther along IMO then they currently are.

Always next year to shine though. 😉
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Stevetarded
16 years ago

The problem with our offense when it comes to settling for 3 is the red zone rushing. We couldn't punch the ball in the endzone nomatter who was carrying it. I would like to see some statistics of how many 0 or negative yard runs we had in the red zone this year because it was bad. To win those 7 games by scoring TD's Rodgers would have basically had to end the season with around 35 passing TD's, I think that is quite a bit to ask.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



A few months ago, someone posted Aaron Rodgers 's red zone stats and they were off the charts. Taking a look at those stats, I was thinking "why the **** are we not putting the ball in Aaron's hands when we're in the RZ?"

So if the run isn't working in the RZ, screw it. Throw it in. Aaron doesn't turn the ball over. We have the receiving corps to do it. Donald Driver is The Man at 4 yard receptions. Let's utilize our strengths.

I don't think Mike McCarthy was aggressive in the RZ enough in '08.

"Stevetarded" wrote:



I would prefer they use the offseason to improve our problems than just hope to work around them next year. Which would mean making it so we can hopefully run the ball in the RZ next season instead of just calling more pass plays.
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warhawk
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16 years ago

One of the reasons is that he still has yet to feel the rush. Granted, half of this is the offensive line's fault, but Rodgers hasn't really "made" plays. It's the receivers doing the work.

"MassPackersFan" wrote:



Eh I'd have to disagree. There were a pretty large number of times where Rodgers scrambled and made something happen when nothing was there - Far more often than I expected out of a first year starter. Do we forget the jump pass or the magic behind the back TD pass so quickly?

On offense, I'm fine with most everything. I'd like to see Brandon Jackson get more carries. I would like to see us try to transition towards the post-Clifton era (as much as that will suck). Give me a balanced offense with a healthy dose of play-action and I'm happy.

"blueleopard" wrote:



I also recall several beautifully thrown long balls that could not have been set in the hands of the receivers any better. There is no way you throw for that many yards and it's all on the receivers. For every great catch I saw a great throw. I couldn't take away anything from either side.
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zombieslayer
16 years ago



I also recall several beautifully thrown long balls that could not have been set in the hands of the receivers any better. There is no way you throw for that many yards and it's all on the receivers. For every great catch I saw a great throw. I couldn't take away anything from either side.

"warhawk" wrote:



Being anal, I think they could have been slightly better.

Rodgers hit the WR in his hands but didn't lead him, so as soon as the catch was made, the WR was tackled. Favre in '07 was able to hit the WR in stride so after the catch was made, he was at full speed and could turn the 50 yard completion to a 72 yard TD.

(now, not at all implying I'd rather have Favre as our QB. I'd take '09 Rodgers over '09 Favre. I'm just saying those throws COULD be better).
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MassPackersFan
16 years ago
Sometimes. There were at least two bombs to Jennings last year that were WELL underthrown, that he still took to the house (Oakland and ermm... that other one where the D blitzed and Jennings was wide open).

The Denver and KC games truly overshadow those instances though.
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DakotaT
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16 years ago
When this offense can consistently pick up a 3 and 2 running the ball on a good defense, then it has arrived. Until we can pick up the first down on those tough situations, we continue to be a work in progress.

That said we are still a very good offense, but we lack the testicles to smash mouth when called upon. I appreciate the quaterback sneaks we now do, but I cringe evertime it's third and short and I see the handoff.
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Cheesey
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16 years ago

Let me clarify. I think we're fine with the offensive players we've got (with the possible exception, as zombieslayer said, of our O-Line).

I was talking about coaching. If we'd had a more aggressive OC, one that went for the throat instead of protecting a lead, I think we would have won a lot more games.

Do we, in your opinion, need a real offensive coordinator?

"Since69" wrote:


I agree......way too conservative on play calling. I think it was Zombie that was saying that all along, and i didn't agree at first, but as the season wore on he had me convinced he was right.
You have to play to WIN, not to not lose. Keep doing what got you the lead so that the other team can't get back in the game.
Get an OC that puts his foot on the opponent's throat once we have them down.
You will win more games with that attack then to sit back on your 3 point lead.
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Rios39
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16 years ago



I also recall several beautifully thrown long balls that could not have been set in the hands of the receivers any better. There is no way you throw for that many yards and it's all on the receivers. For every great catch I saw a great throw. I couldn't take away anything from either side.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



Being anal, I think they could have been slightly better.

Rodgers hit the WR in his hands but didn't lead him, so as soon as the catch was made, the WR was tackled. Favre in '07 was able to hit the WR in stride so after the catch was made, he was at full speed and could turn the 50 yard completion to a 72 yard TD.

(now, not at all implying I'd rather have Favre as our QB. I'd take '09 Rodgers over '09 Favre. I'm just saying those throws COULD be better).

"warhawk" wrote:



Rodgers throws the ball more like Brady. He'll try to find one on one coverage and then throw the deep balls. A lot of time Favre has the play set in his hand like the OT game in Denver, the ball was in the air right off the hut. There was a few throws like that from Rodgers. But mostly you could see him look left, look right, look under then see one on one deep and throw it up.

There's pros and cons to both, The Pros for the Rodgers side of it is that he's scanning through his progressions well and doesn't have his mind made up off snap no matter what the coverage. The Cons is what we are discussing. The Pros to what Favre did last year was that if the coverage was off then it's easy TD. But then when he did it other games you see the negative like the Cowboys game, that's a product of making your mind up before the snap.
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Rios39
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16 years ago
The guy that said Rodgers needed to deliver more. Well it was mentioned he'd need to throw 7 more TD = 35 TD year. Plus he ran for 4 TD so that would be expecting your QB to account for 39-40 TD in order to win games. Uh UH. If Rodgers accounts for 40 TD and we have a top 10 defense, well we'd likely be playing football right now.
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zombieslayer
16 years ago


I agree......way too conservative on play calling. I think it was Zombie that was saying that all along, and i didn't agree at first, but as the season wore on he had me convinced he was right.
You have to play to WIN, not to not lose. Keep doing what got you the lead so that the other team can't get back in the game.
Get an OC that puts his foot on the opponent's throat once we have them down.
You will win more games with that attack then to sit back on your 3 point lead.

"Cheesey" wrote:



+1.

You got 3 points there that I really like:
1) ALWAYS play to win, not play to not lose,
2) Put your foot down your opponent's throat once you have them down,
3) You will win more games with that attack then to sit back on your 3 point lead.

All 3 assumptions are 100% correct. When he's down, kick him again. Then kick him again. Then kick him again. Keep kicking him until the referee says there's no time on the clock.

Remember that game when Favre threw 6 TDs? Now, this is NOT anything Favre vs Rodgers, but it's everything Jets vs Packers playcalling. Favre threw 2 TDs on 4th down. Yes. They had the game wrapped up but stilll went for it on 4th down.

I like that. For the record, MM was doing that in '07. He seemed to stop doing it in '08. We get into the Red Zone, with a near perfect QB (Aaron's red zone stats are incredible), and MM calls run play after run play. Urgh!
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buckeyepackfan
16 years ago
I have been sayin it all year and getting bashed for it"I'm a hater"

MM plays not to lose the game instead of playing "to win the game!!!".

What do I know, I'm just a "Hater". :icon_smile: :icon_smile: :icon_smile: :icon_smile:
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