musccy
10 years ago
I don't dispute that they have done horrendous things. I understand the moral dilemma about standing on the sideline watching people suffer. However, this isn't going to be the only human rights violation we see. Has the U.S. done anything with Boko Haram? To my knowledge we haven't and they're just as atrocious. There are 7-some billion people in the world, only 300 million of us. We simply can't police every human rights violation.

We're imposing our will in other people's back yards. Whether justified or not, you can't expect to do that without blow back, or pissing off a few people. Like I said, it takes 2-3 pissed off people to cause a lot of harm, and we're not going to be able to bomb or snipe the problem away.

I don't know the answer, and I'm mixed about intervening. As I said, it's tough to see what's happening in that region, but I also think a military approach is an exercise in futility.
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
10 years ago
There are always going to be barbarians in the world. It starts with calling people like ISIS what they are. Barbarians.

It ain't PC. But it is true.

Second thing to remember is that most terrorism is state-funded. States that fund terrorism should be called out as such, and called out repeatedly. And not in nicey-nice political terms at summits and what-not. You support terrorists? I don't give a flying fuck if you do it for religious reasons or because you think it makes you cool or what your reason is. You're a scumbag country, and we aren't going to associate with you.

The Cold War has been over for 25 years. We no longer have to suck up to countries just because they sit on top of oil fields. We've got Bakken, we've got the Permian Basin, we've got California and a hundred other places.

And if you or those you support attack us again, the third part is to respond with extreme prejudice. We're not just going to send SEALS to hunt down the next bin Laden crackpot in his cave. We're going to make *your* leaders' palaces into rubble. Even if it means your cities end up looking like the aftermath of Dresden.

Be a barbarian if you want. That's your right to self-determination. Beat up on other barbarians if you want. That's theirs. Fuck with us, though, and it's simple.

You die.

I don't care if it takes stealth bombers or Marines or both. That's what they're for.

You die.

Period.

You die.

And if the whackjobs call us nasty names for thinking ourselves superior to the barbarians and kiling them all.

Fuck them, too. Me, I'm going to try to be at an airport cheering the return of the stealth crews and the Marines.

Sometimes I think the last president to approach "foreign policy" correct was George Washington.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
DoddPower
10 years ago
I don't know. I can't help but feel like some or overly minimizing the important of the oil in the region. Obviously it goes much more deeper than oil. But the United States, and the rest of the world and our allies, still have a lot of interest in foreign oil. Not to mention all of the business interests involved. We can drill as much oil as we want here in the US, process tar sands from Canada, frack for natural gas and blast mountains for coal in Appalachia and beyond, install millions of acres of solar and wind farms, but oil is still going to be a vital component of the energy infrastructure for the foreseeable future. If for no other reason, it's pretty expensive to produce energy here in the US for many reasons. Environmental regulations, higher labor costs, taxes, etc. I live in CA oil country, and they are working on establishing a new rail line to import oil from North Dakota to be refined in Bakersfield. Why? Mostly because it's cheaper, but also because it's of better quality.

While the US might be minimizing its dependence on foreign oil, it's long overdue and we aren't nearly were we need to be, yet. Oil companies are going to milk that cow for all it's worth, which will undoubtedly continue to be an important factor in US foreign policy. There's still a tremendous amount of money and power involved.
texaspackerbacker
10 years ago
I'm with you all the way, Wade. A couple of questions, though. Would you have the commander-in-chief just basically do it? Or go to Congress for some sort of declaration or resolution? (That might work for an Obama-type, but take the next guy we hopefully will have - some decent "Neocon"-type hahaha - the leftist media will tear him a new one like they did Bush if he doesn't probably even if he does)? Or would you have him go to the damn UN hahahaha (rhetorical question to you, but to some it would be a real possibility)?

Musccy, Boko Haram in Nigeria is an example of what I mentioned - the bad guys (not necessarily ISIS by name) branching out to non-Muslim places or at least not Muslim governed areas of Africa and Asia. In fact, I think we could police the whole world if we were so motivated (the old time British did it with a lot less, arguably Ancient Rome too), but the cost in blood and treasure probably would outweigh the benefit by a big margin.


Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
texaspackerbacker
10 years ago

I don't know. I can't help but feel like some or overly minimizing the important of the oil in the region. Obviously it goes much more deeper than oil. But the United States, and the rest of the world and our allies, still have a lot of interest in foreign oil. Not to mention all of the business interests involved. We can drill as much oil as we want here in the US, process tar sands from Canada, frack for natural gas and blast mountains for coal in Appalachia and beyond, install millions of acres of solar and wind farms, but oil is still going to be a vital component of the energy infrastructure for the foreseeable future. If for no other reason, it's pretty expensive to produce energy here in the US for many reasons. Environmental regulations, higher labor costs, taxes, etc. I live in CA oil country, and they are working on establishing a new rail line to import oil from North Dakota to be refined in Bakersfield. Why? Mostly because it's cheaper, but also because it's of better quality.

While the US might be minimizing its dependence on foreign oil, it's long overdue and we aren't nearly were we need to be, yet. Oil companies are going to milk that cow for all it's worth, which will undoubtedly continue to be an important factor in US foreign policy. There's still a tremendous amount of money and power involved.

Originally Posted by: DoddPower 



I'm a little bit surprised - pleasantly surprised, Dodd, based on various posts from you on other topics - that you are in favor of all that stuff. I think it's more about the needs of Europe and the Japs - and maybe India and Red China. That would seem to suggest that they carry the load in this ........ what is it? a war? police action?


Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
10 years ago

I'm with you all the way, Wade. A couple of questions, though. Would you have the commander-in-chief just basically do it? Or go to Congress for some sort of declaration or resolution? (That might work for an Obama-type, but take the next guy we hopefully will have - some decent "Neocon"-type hahaha - the leftist media will tear him a new one like they did Bush if he doesn't probably even if he does)? Or would you have him go to the damn UN hahahaha (rhetorical question to you, but to some it would be a real possibility)?

Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker 



I believe in the way the Founders set up the separation of powers, so I would want a Congressional declaration. None of this "resolution" crap; that's as bad as war-by-executive-order. I would be okay with the vote taking place electronically (to speed the reaction), but I would want a declaration.

The reality, though, is I'm not sure we're capable of electing that kind of Congress any more. They're too worried about what CNN and the New York Times says.

And as far as the UN goes, I could care less what they think anymore. I've come to believe that Wilsonian internationalism is about a bad an idea as people have ever come up with.

I'm very Clausewitzian in my approach to war. Avoid war if you can. Never shoot first. But if someone else shoots first, and if we're stuck with these nation things (as opposed to the anarchic ideal I dream of), then if you fight, you fight until its over. Until the other side surrenders to your will unconditionally and completely.

I don't believe in armies as peacekeepers. I believe armies are there to beat the shit out of the scumbags who attacked you and ensure they roll over on their back like the pissants they are.

(Not surprisingly, no one is going to hire me to teach military history any time soon. I can hide a lot of my non-PC character, but I couldn't do it if I were teaching war, strategic and tactical choice, etc.)

(On the other hand, maybe I'm not qualified anyway, given that I've never had to deal with lead flying over my head.)


And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
10 years ago

I don't know. I can't help but feel like some or overly minimizing the important of the oil in the region. Obviously it goes much more deeper than oil. But the United States, and the rest of the world and our allies, still have a lot of interest in foreign oil. Not to mention all of the business interests involved. We can drill as much oil as we want here in the US, process tar sands from Canada, frack for natural gas and blast mountains for coal in Appalachia and beyond, install millions of acres of solar and wind farms, but oil is still going to be a vital component of the energy infrastructure for the foreseeable future. If for no other reason, it's pretty expensive to produce energy here in the US for many reasons. Environmental regulations, higher labor costs, taxes, etc. I live in CA oil country, and they are working on establishing a new rail line to import oil from North Dakota to be refined in Bakersfield. Why? Mostly because it's cheaper, but also because it's of better quality.

While the US might be minimizing its dependence on foreign oil, it's long overdue and we aren't nearly were we need to be, yet. Oil companies are going to milk that cow for all it's worth, which will undoubtedly continue to be an important factor in US foreign policy. There's still a tremendous amount of money and power involved.

Originally Posted by: DoddPower 



Our system requires oil. No question about that. But we don't need Middle-East oil.

Funny thing about oil prices, though. When they go up, two things happen: we "discover" we have more available than we once believed; and we figure out new ways to substitute away from us.

Finally, if "regulations" and "taxes" are what make oil "expensive," maybe it isn't increasing our dependence on "cheaper" foreign oil. Maybe it is getting rid of some of the damn regulations and taxes?

To my mind, if it is prior government action that makes future government stupid ideas "necessary," the solution is not to adopt the stupid idea. Its to re-visit the prior government action.


And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
DoddPower
10 years ago

Our system requires oil. No question about that. But we don't need Middle-East oil.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



We may not need it, but we are still substantially relying on it. I also don't buy that we don't need it, at least in the short to intermediate future. Also, as I mentioned, many parties outside of the US definitely need it, and we share many of those parties interests.

Finally, if "regulations" and "taxes" are what make oil "expensive," maybe it isn't increasing our dependence on "cheaper" foreign oil. Maybe it is getting rid of some of the damn regulations and taxes?

Originally Posted by: Wade 



That's a reasonable point and I don't necessarily dispute it. But the regulations are what they are, and aren't likely to change substantially in the near future. Just like the US can't really compete with labor prices in China, there are certain things that are just out of reach for the US market without wholesale societal changes that aren't likely to happen any time soon, imo.
DakotaT
10 years ago

I wonder if the world would be jumping at our throats if we just minded our own business, took care of our own citizens and kept our nose out of others agendas.

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Careful, somebody might call you a liberal.
porky88
10 years ago
We bomb them and they’ll probably retreat. What happens when we stop bombing them?

They just come back.

It seems to me that President Obama is good at reading the polls. The American people want to do something about ISIS, but the polls say they don't want troops on the ground. I'm not a military expert, but I believe for a bombing campaign to be really effective, we need troops on the ground to identity the targets. There's only so much you can do through the air.

Is it really wise to arm the Syrian Rebels? How moderate are they? The rebels in Syria have beheaded people as well. Also, a spokesperson for one of the families of the slain American journalist, says they believe the rebels in Syria took their son, and traded him to ISIS for cash. The Obama Admin refutes the claim , but it’s spooky to think we're going to train and arm people we don't know a whole lot about.

Why do I have a hunch that in 10-20 years we'll regret giving some of these rebels arms? Didn’t we do that in the '80s with the Taliban? They were fighting the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, so we armed them. Twenty years later they used the weapons we gave them against us. Feels like history is repeating itself all over again.

Honestly, though, I’m very torn on this whole thing. Part me believes we should just stay out and let the region take care of itself. No matter what we do, there are always going to barbaric people in the world that want to kill Americans. However, there's part of me that believes that is incredibly naive. Seems to me we're approaching this with a half measure. Perhaps we should go all in or all out. Again, I’m pretty torn on this.
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