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steveishere
Veteran Member

11 years ago

He doesn't play in the base. Because he's not a prototypical fit for the system.

Originally Posted by: nerdmann

He's not a "prototypical" 4-3 DE either but that hasn't stopped you from suggesting it over and over again. He's a perfect fit for our nickle defense which we play more than base anyways.

DakotaT
Select Member

11 years ago

#42

I love your reality, you strive on the failure and pain of Packer players.

The King of DOOM and GLOOM posts right here on this forum, we are all so lucky.

Just kills you when The Packers are successful, because when they are not then you are at your best bitching and whining and making your idiot claims that you know what is best for The Green Bay Packers.

Your right about one thing, I'm going to support the guys who play.

Now I expect a smartass reply, because we all know that you always have to have the last word.

Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan

Seems to me our defense quit playing in the Bears game. Or am I just being doom and gloom. That defense has no heart, and that's on the coach. Always has been, always will be that way. And Dom needs to be shown the door, ASAP. Now I'll let you have the last word, but please try and convince everyone that the defense has any nads left. They needed to step up and they gave up instead.

Rockmolder
Honored Member

11 years ago

#43

He's not a "prototypical" 4-3 DE either but that hasn't stopped you from suggesting it over and over again. He's a perfect fit for our nickle defense which we play more than base anyways.

Originally Posted by: steveishere

From time to time I wonder whether nerdmann might actually just be Kevin on another account, just to keep the conversations going and troll a bit.

I'm pretty sure Santana Dotson was under 300lbs. I've already said some 4-3 defenses use a NT who would usually be around 315-340lb but I don't know of any that use 2 and every 4-3 I can think of has DTs that are around 280-310 lbs on it.

steveishere wrote:

This right here. In a 4-3, there's, very often, a nose tackle and an under tackle. The Williams wall, for instance. Or our own 4-3 from a couple of years ago, with Pickett playing the NT role and Corey Williams playing the UT.

And that UT role is the role that most of our current DEs would play in a 4-3, rather than DE.

Kabeer was a pass rushing DE too.

That's how I view Nick Perry, Mike Neal, probably Clay Matthew (although you could easily line him up at LB too) and Datone Jones.

Perry didn't even want to be drafted by a 3-4 team, he wanted to be a 4-3 DE. Iirc Datone held off on bulking up before the draft, because he wasn't sure what kind of team was going to draft him.

As for Daniels, you could line him up inside, but he's only 300 lbs, not 340 like a real NT or DT. He's not gonna necessarily stuff the run up the middle. He has shown however, that he can get to the QB.

"nerdmann" wrote:

Again, Nick Perry was viewed as to small to play as a full-time DE in the 4-3 and seen as more of a DE/OLB tweener. Or, a perfect 3-4 fit, if you will. Why do you keep ignoring this point? Do you remember Jamal Reynolds?

As for Daniels, the UT thing I previously mentioned fits him, as well.

Aaron Kampman was a Defensive End. Which DE is in both 4 - 3 and 3 - 4 schemes. However, DT and NT are not. Go figure!!

DE - DT - DT - DE

DE - NT - DE

I said 'interior' followed with defensive lineman to avoid the ambiguity of 'interior linemen' of both defensive and offensive lines. I was specifying the interior OF the defensive line, not the defensive 11.

For what it's worth, Pro Football Focus lumps both DT and NT together with their stats.

Cumulative Defense Tackle & Nose Tackle Summary

"Zero2Cool" wrote:

DE in both systems is a completely different position, though and NT is, again, just a sub-naming of DTs.

LE - NT - UT - RE

LDE (UT-type) - NT - RDE (UT-type)

Aaron Kampan was a 5-7 technique in our 4-3. Corey Williams was a 2-3 technique and Pickett a 0-1 technique.

In a 3-4, the DEs move between 2-4 techniques and the NT is still a 0-1 technique. The OLBs don't really get mentioned as D-linemen, but they do play 5-9 if you will.

So NT really isn't that much different from a gap control standpoint, where 3-4 DEs and OLBs need to be vastly different players from 4-3 DEs (Who are more like 4-3 UTs) and OLBs because of their responsiblities.

Zero2Cool
Elite Member

11 years ago

#44

From time to time I wonder whether nerdmann might actually just be Kevin on another account, just to keep the conversations going and troll a bit.

Originally Posted by: Rockmolder

I stopped right there because that deserves a helluva smack upside yo head!!

steveishere
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#45

Perry - Jolly - Daniels - Jones
-- DE ---- NT ---- DT ---- DE

Clay - Jones - Hawk
-SLB -- MLB -- WLB

Just to keep with the spirit of the thread here's what I think the line up would look like in a 4-3 next season. NT I'm not sure because Raji, Pickett, Jolly are all FAs so I just went with the cheapest one. Jones has no experience being an edge rusher but he could probably pull it off.

Back ups I guess would be like this:

Mulumba - Boyd - Worthy - Wilson

Barrington - ? - Lattimore
Palmer

I don't know all that much about 4-3 defenses but I guess Lattimore could handle MLB or WLB. I tried not to use FAs because who knows who they would re-sign. I would guess Hawk would make a better WLB because he seemed pretty good at it to start his career but I don't think we have any typical MLB on the roster so I guess they might want to draft one. Clay would be a beast MLB probably but he'd be more of a playmaker at SLB like Von Miller.

I suppose this is better than the group they had in 2008 and they could pull it off but I'm not convinced that it's any better of a set up personnel wise than the current D is. I also think MM is committed to a 3-4 but when your current D-coordinator has had more excuses than results for 4/5 seasons it may be time to move on. If they do move on from Dom I think they'll stick to a 3-4 still. It may be time for a more creative guy on defenses like the Jets and Ravens have who run all kinds of formations with elements from 3-4 and 4-3.

DarkaneRules
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#46

Clay is also a beast OLB. Injuries and in-effective play can make any scheme look bad. Win your match-ups.

Circular Arguments: They are a heck of an annoyance

buckeyepackfan
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#47

Originally Posted by: DakotaT

I'll just give one example since it is the most recent, I'm sure you will, in the future, try and changE Packer history to convince yourself, you know what you are talking about.

Packers vs Giants,

1st Giant drive..DRIVE TOTALS: GB 0, NYG 0, 6 plays, 20 yards, 4:38 elapsed(Punt to endzpne)

1st Packer drive..DRIVE TOTALS: GB 0, NYG 0, 3 plays, 2 yards, 1:51 elapsed( T.Masthay punts 52 yards to NYG 26, Center-B.Goode. R.Randle returns to GB 42 for 32 yards)

2nd drive Giants..DRIVE TOTALS: GB 0, NYG 7, 5 plays, 42 yards, 2:57 elapsed(Giants drive short field for TD)

2nd drive Packers..DRIVE TOTALS: GB 0, NYG 7, 3 plays, 6 yards, 1:35 elapsed(3 and out)
T.Masthay punts 52 yards to NYG 22, Center-B.Goode, fair catch by R.Randle.

3rd drive Giants..DRIVE TOTALS: GB 0, NYG 10, 11 plays, 56 yards, 4:56 elapsed
J.Brown 40 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-Z.DeOssie, Holder-S.Weatherford.
11 plays Giants managed 26 yds.

3rd drive Packers...DRIVE TOTALS: GB 3, NYG 10, 7 plays, 76 yards, 3:42 elapsed
M.Crosby 24 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-B.Goode, Holder-T.Masthay.

Giants 4th drive..DRIVE TOTALS: GB 6, NYG 10, 11 plays, 84 yards, 6:53 elapsed
E.Manning pass short left intended for L.Murphy INTERCEPTED by T.Williams at GB 11. T.Williams to GB 21 for 10 yards

4th drive Packers..DRIVE TOTALS: GB 6, NYG 10, 5 plays, 35 yards, 2:10 elapsed
T.Masthay punts 35 yards to NYG 13, Center-B.Goode, fair catch by R.Randle.

5th drive Giants...DRIVE TOTALS: GB 3, NYG 10, 3 plays, 7 yards, 0:35 elapsed
S.Weatherford punts 56 yards to GB 24, Center-Z.DeOssie. M.Hyde to GB 37 for 13 yards

5th drive Packers...DRIVE TOTALS: GB 6, NYG 10, 4 plays, 24 yards, 0:43 elapsed

Even though The Packers offense could generate next to nothing in the 1st half, The defense kept them close and Packers only trailed 10-6.

6th drive Packers..DRIVE TOTALS: GB 6, NYG 10, 4 plays, 40 yards, 2:44 elapsed
S.Tolzien pass short middle intended for J.Jones INTERCEPTED by J.Beason at NYG 41. J.Beason to 50 for 9 yards

6th drive Giants...DRIVE TOTALS: GB 6, NYG 13, 5 plays, 40 yards, 2:10 elapsed
J.Brown 28 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-Z.DeOssie, Holder-S.Weatherford.

Again The Giants start with a short field and Packers hold them to 20 yds.

7th drive Packers....DRIVE TOTALS: GB 6, NYG 13, 8 plays, 45 yards, 3:34 elapsed
T.Masthay punts 31 yards to NYG 17, Center-B.Goode, fair catch by R.Randle. PENALTY on NYG
7th Drive Giants...DRIVE TOTALS: GB 6, NYG 20, 10 plays, 63 yards, 6:07 elapsed
B.Jacobs left guard for 1 yard, TOUCHDOWN.
Giants ONE sustained drive of the game.

8th drive Packers....DRIVE TOTALS: GB 13, NYG 20, 5 plays, 83 yards, 2:42 elapsed
Shotgun) E.Lacy left guard for 4 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
Packers only down 7

8th drive Giants.....DRIVE TOTALS: GB 13, NYG 20, 3 plays, -4 yards, 1:48 elapsed
S.Weatherford punts 52 yards to GB 33, Center-Z.DeOssie. M.Hyde to GB 40 for 7 yards
(Packers D forces a 3 and out giving The Offense great field position and momentum.

9th drive Packers...S.Tolzien pass intended for A.Quarless INTERCEPTED by J.Pierre-Paul at GB 24. J.Pierre-Paul for 24 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

9th drive Giants....SEE ABOVE!!!!!

10th Drive Packers....DRIVE TOTALS: GB 13, NYG 27, 3 plays, 9 yards, 2:19 elapsed
T.Masthay punts 41 yards to NYG 30, Center-B.Goode, out of bounds.
Packers fail to move the ball.

10th drive Giants.....DRIVE TOTALS: GB 13, NYG 27, 7 plays, 16 yards, 3:58 elapsed\
S.Weatherford punts 37 yards to GB 17

11th drive Packers....DRIVE TOTALS: GB 13, NYG 27, 7 plays, 50 yards, 2:43 elapsed
S.Tolzien pass deep middle intended for J.Boykin INTERCEPTED by A.Rolle

11th drive Giants......DRIVE TOTALS: GB 13, NYG 27, 3 plays, 7 yards, 1:12 elapsed
S.Weatherford punts 61 yards to GB 18

12th drive Packers....DRIVE TOTALS: GB 13, NYG 27, 5 plays, 33 yards, 0:37 elapsed

END OF GAME.

And there it is, once again you showing your football ignorance, while suggesting The Packers front office do the most stupid thing it could do in the middle of the season.

Last Words......ONCE AGAIN MR. DOOM AND GLOOM IS COMPLETELY WRONG!!!!

I was addicted to The Hokey Pokey, but I turned myself around!

warhawk
Senior Member

11 years ago

#48

I am somewhat confused by all the discussion about the personnel and the DL and the DE's and the OLB's and who could play where. Hell, if the guys we have hadn't been hurt I don't see a problem there.
The problem is on the BACK END. How does switching to a 4-3 fix that?
I will say I have seen 4-3 defenses cause problems for both Arod and #4 before him but ONLY when the front four guys were able to get after our QB's without help.

Can anyone tell me we have those four PLUS some guys to rotate that will do this? Because when I see 4-3's that don't get pressure and have to send guys the pass D suffers big time.

Going back to my first thought what difference does it make if these guys or those guys could convert up front when we don't have people on the back end that can guard anybody?

Get some safeties that can pick up the WR's and not totally lose track of where the ball is. I saw a play against the Giants where we had three guys in the area and the WR was still open and caught the ball. I see a WR have to change directions and go sideways on the goal line and the DB charging down the field doesn't even react to the change of direction. Touchdown on a wounded quail pass five yards off target( Previous game). You know, the one where our two guys ran into each other and the WR backs into the endzone for another unearned TD.

How does the fact Perry may be able to play DE in a 4-3 fix THAT?

"The train is leaving the station."

DakotaT
Select Member

11 years ago

#49

Originally Posted by: buckeyepackfan

This team cannot get off the field on third down. The Bears and Eagles both shoved the ball down our throats in the fourth quarters to ice the game. And at what point were we actually in the Giants game? The one possession that JPP had his pick six? Was the defense any good last year, or the year before. I hate our defense because it is soft and has been that way for as long as I can remember. The Bears maximize their talent, we piss ours away. Slurp on our coaches all you want - they are not getting it done.

buckeyepackfan
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#50

Originally Posted by: DakotaT

You can't even admit when it is right in your face, I'm done trying to enlighten you.

Next year I hope The Packers decide to fire all the coaches, cut every player not working on their rookie salaries, except Rodgers and Mathews.

Ted can then fill the roster with his 11 draft picks(which he will have after trading down 4 times.) and UDFA.

Then I can come on here and listen to you whine about how bad they are, how they are pissing away Rodgers years, except you will finally have gotten it right!!

I was addicted to The Hokey Pokey, but I turned myself around!

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wpr (3h) : 7 days

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dfosterf (16-Apr) : Nobody coming up with a keep, but at x amount

dfosterf (16-Apr) : Trade, cut or keep

dfosterf (16-Apr) : that from Jaire

dfosterf (16-Apr) : My guess is the Packers floated the concept of a reworked contract via his agent and agent got a f'

Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : Yes, and that is why I think Rob worded it how he did. Rather than say "agent"

dfosterf (16-Apr) : Same laws apply. Agent must present such an offer to Jaire. Cannot accept or reject without presenting it

Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : I'm thinking that is why Rob worded it how he did.

dfosterf (16-Apr) : The Packers can certainly still make the offer to the agent

dfosterf (16-Apr) : Laws of agency and definition of fiduciary responsibility

dfosterf (16-Apr) : Jaire is open to a reduced contract without Jaire's permission

dfosterf (16-Apr) : The agent would arguably violate the law if he were to tell the Packers

Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : That someone ... likely the agent.

Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : So, Jaire has not been offered nor rejected a pay reduction, but someone says he'd decline.

Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : Demovksy says t was direct communication with someone familiar with Jaire’s line of thinking at that moment.

Zero2Cool (16-Apr) : Demovsky just replied to me a bit ago. Jaire hasn't said it.

dfosterf (16-Apr) : Of course, that depends on the definition of "we"

dfosterf (16-Apr) : We have been told that they haven't because he wouldn't accept it. I submit we don't know that

dfosterf (16-Apr) : What is the downside in making a calculated reduced offer to Jaire?

Zero2Cool (15-Apr) : Packers are receiving interest in Jaire Alexander but a trade is not imminent

Zero2Cool (15-Apr) : Jalen Ramsey wants to be traded. He's never happy is he?

Zero2Cool (15-Apr) : two 1sts in 2022 and two 2nd's in 2023 and 2024

Zero2Cool (15-Apr) : Packers had fortunate last three drafts.

dfosterf (15-Apr) : I may have to move

dfosterf (15-Apr) : My wife just told the ancient Japanese sushi dude not enough rice under his fish

Zero2Cool (14-Apr) : I think a dozen is what I need

dfosterf (14-Apr) : Go fund me for this purpose just might work. A dozen nurses show up at 1265 to provide mental health assistance.

dfosterf (14-Apr) : Maybe send a crew of Angels to the Packers draft room on draft day.

Zero2Cool (14-Apr) : I am the Angel that gets visited.

dfosterf (14-Apr) : Visiting Angels has a pretty good reputation

Zero2Cool (14-Apr) : what

Martha Careful (14-Apr) : WINNING IT, not someone else losing it. The best victory though was re-uniting with his wife

Martha Careful (14-Apr) : The manner in which he won it was just amazing and wonderful. First blowing the lead then getting back, then blowing it. But ultimately

Zero2Cool (12-Apr) : I'm guessing since the thumb was broken, he wasn't feeling it.

dfosterf (10-Apr) : Looking for guidance. Not feeling the thumb.

Mucky Tundra (10-Apr) : If they knew about it or not

Mucky Tundra (10-Apr) : I don't recall that he did which is why I asked.

Zero2Cool (10-Apr) : Guessing they probably knew. Did he have cast or something on?

Mucky Tundra (10-Apr) : Did they know that at the time or was that something the realized afterwards?

Zero2Cool (9-Apr) : Van Ness played most of season with broken thumb

wpr (9-Apr) : yay

Zero2Cool (9-Apr) : Mark Murphy says Steelers likely to protect Packers game. Meaning, no Ireland

Zero2Cool (8-Apr) : Struggling to figure out what text editor options are needed and which are 'nice to have'

Mucky Tundra (8-Apr) : *CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP*

Zero2Cool (2-Apr) : WR who said he'd break Xavier Worthy 40 time...and ran slower than you

Mucky Tundra (2-Apr) : Who?

Zero2Cool (2-Apr) : Texas’ WR Isaiah Bond is scheduled to visit the Bills, Browns, Chiefs, Falcons, Packers and Titans starting next week.

Zero2Cool (2-Apr) : Spotting ball isn't changing, only measuring distance is, Which wasn't the issue.

Zero2Cool (2-Apr) : The spotting of the ball IS the issue. Not the chain gang.

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