DoddPower
12 years ago

This is why Mychal Kendricks was so high on my draft list. [grin1]

Good post.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



That guy is fast!! 4.47 forty, 4.19 20-yd shuffle, both top performances among MLB's. He was a nice pick at 46 overall, although he is only 5'11. The Eagles had a nice draft though. They have some serious talent on that team. It will be embarrassing for that coaching staff if they can't put it together on the field.

Zero2Cool
12 years ago

This is why Mychal Kendricks was so high on my draft list. [grin1]

Good post.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



You must have fricking loved Mike Sherman's draft picks. [duh]
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Dexter_Sinister
12 years ago

Eh, Bishop is more than serviceable in coverage when he doesn't have to cover forever. He's capable of sitting in zones being the underneath guy for a few seconds. But sure, leaving him out to dry with no pass rush is a horrible idea, just like it would be for Hawk, Smith, Manning, or any other LB on our team. We don't have a 'study' MLB that can play really well in space and is fast. Yet another reason why the pass rush is so important to this team. The Packer's MLB's are an obvious weakness but until we upgrade the position, we must hope the pass rush has an indirect positive effect on them (and I think it will). Either way, they're not going to be great in coverage. It's just not Hawk's or Bishop's game.

Originally Posted by: doddpower 



Hawk played in the exact same circumstances as Bishop and he was almost twice as effective in pass coverage.

And Hawk was only average.

That gives you some measure of how poor Bishop was in coverage. According to the pass metrics chart posted by Rashaan Salaami

week 13 pass D metrics 

Bishop allowed a 122.4 rating as of week 13. He missed the next 2 weeks with a calf injury and I didn't see an update posted that included the last 2 weeks of the year. But I doubt he improved much.

Hawk only allowed a 85.4 which is very near average.

Don't get me wrong. My only beef with Bishop is that he is too slow to cover a TE. Everything else I really like. His attitude, hard work, hustle, effort, nose for the ball etc. He is a good down hill kind of player.

But our biggest problem was pass coverage and our worst player in pass coverage was Bishop. If you want to fix the D, start with the biggest weakness. Because if I were scheming to beat the Packers, I would line up a TE over Bishop and run him away from help. Kind of like what the Chargers did to him. Pull the corner up in the flat with an out or curl, run a WR at the post and send Bishop's TE out past the flat in the hole.
I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
DoddPower
12 years ago
I don't think there's much denying our MLB's will get eaten up in man coverage of tight ends, especially the good ones. I simply hope that he's not asked to do that much. The Packer's are mostly a zone team now. As long as Bishop can stay underneath receivers/tight ends in the middle with help over the top, he will be OK. The reason the zones were stretched so far last year is due to the pathetic pass rush. The holes will be a lot tighter when the QB has less time to throw.

With that being said, I don't care if they both are replaced in nickle packages, because neither are good in coverage. I think Bishop was left out to dry too often last year, mostly a result of poor defensive scheme. I remember thinking several times "why in the hell is Bishop left one-on-one with a player he obviously cannot stop??!" It reminded me of Bob Sander's defensive strategy in the 2007 NFL Championship game. GIVE THE MAN SOME HELP!! Caper's has to do a better job of getting players in position to succeed. I understand he was handicapped last season due to lack of pass rush and poor communication, but some of those calls were inexcusable. It seemed that regardless of how many times Bishop was beaten, Caper's continued to allow it to happen. If it's truly that bad and there's NOTHING he could do about it scheme wise (I believe there was more he could have done), than put another guy out there. It's rough to watch a player struggle like that.

I'm obviously high on Manning, especially as an NC State guy. I'm going to continue to hope he develops quickly and can see the field sooner rather than later, at least on passing downs.
Dexter_Sinister
12 years ago

I don't think there's much denying our MLB's will get eaten up in man coverage of tight ends, especially the good ones. I simply hope that he's not asked to do that much. The Packer's are mostly a zone team now. As long as Bishop can stay underneath receivers/tight ends in the middle with help over the top, he will be OK. The reason the zones were stretched so far last year is due to the pathetic pass rush. The holes will be a lot tighter when the QB has less time to throw.

With that being said, I don't care if they both are replaced in nickle packages, because neither are good in coverage. I think Bishop was left out to dry too often last year, mostly a result of poor defensive scheme. I remember thinking several times "why in the hell is Bishop left one-on-one with a player he obviously cannot stop??!" It reminded me of Bob Sander's defensive strategy in the 2007 NFL Championship game. GIVE THE MAN SOME HELP!! Caper's has to do a better job of getting players in position to succeed. I understand he was handicapped last season due to lack of pass rush and poor communication, but some of those calls were inexcusable. It seemed that regardless of how many times Bishop was beaten, Caper's continued to allow it to happen. If it's truly that bad and there's NOTHING he could do about it scheme wise (I believe there was more he could have done), than put another guy out there. It's rough to watch a player struggle like that.

I'm obviously high on Manning, especially as an NC State guy. I'm going to continue to hope he develops quickly and can see the field sooner rather than later, at least on passing downs.

Originally Posted by: doddpower 



First, you should see my post on the much maligned Packer D. I don't agree with most on how bad the Packer's D was. 3 net points average in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd quarters. Then an average of 8 were given up in the 4th quarters with an average 18 point lead. The worst thing about our D is they played with a huge lead too often. Stops were not as important as burning clock.

Second, Bishop is in there for all the other things he brings. However, I would like to see him not being in coverage.

The whole point of the thread is, would Manning take Hawks place.

Why would they leave Bishop in to screw up our coverage and take Hawk out?

Even if Manning is better than Hawk, you get an even bigger improvement replacing Bishop.




I want to go out like my Grandpa did. Peacefully in his sleep.
Not screaming in terror like his passengers.
DoddPower
12 years ago

First, you should see my post on the much maligned Packer D. I don't agree with most on how bad the Packer's D was. 3 net points average in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd quarters. Then an average of 8 were given up in the 4th quarters with an average 18 point lead. The worst thing about our D is they played with a huge lead too often. Stops were not as important as burning clock.

Second, Bishop is in there for all the other things he brings. However, I would like to see him not being in coverage.

The whole point of the thread is, would Manning take Hawks place.

Why would they leave Bishop in to screw up our coverage and take Hawk out?

Even if Manning is better than Hawk, you get an even bigger improvement replacing Bishop.



Originally Posted by: Dexter_Sinister 



I understand your perspective but still disagree. This defense was horrible and I don't need to dig into the stats to try to convince myself otherwise. If the defense was not capable of stopping teams just because they had a big lead, then that makes them a bad defense, in my opinion. I can't imagine Caper's or any defensive player thinking "Let's just make them burn the clock" especially considering how often huge plays and quick scores were given up. Also, all of the "risk taking" and gambling for interceptions kind of goes against that argument as well. The defense was desperate for a stop however they could get it. Any intelligent coach should take their chances with Aaron Rodger's on the field to either score more points or burn the clock (or both) rather than hope a bad defense will burn some time (despite repeated failure to do so). I definitely can't buy that argument.

As my post said earlier, I wouldn't mind both of them being replaced. I also described my belief that Caper's left Bishop out to dry with his defensive calls making his stats look even worse. I watched every snap (like most here) and was really confused over some of the defensive calls. I saw Bishop in more one on one match up's, often in man coverage, than Hawk. I think Bishop is better up close to the line of scrimmage and playing small underneath zones in the middle of the field than Hawk. Having one player like that on the field in nickle packages is fine as long as the other players can do their job and cover. That's why I think replacing Hawk could be a better option, although it is splitting hairs. Both are bad, but more scheme adjustments could be made to compensate. I've seen Hawk burned continually over the past several years in coverage which likely makes me minimize the significance of some of the defenders stats last year in what I'm hoping was an anomaly season. I saw more 'hope' and/or potential in Bishop in the 2010 season than Hawk in coverage. So much like the rest of the defense who generally played well prior to last season, I'm willing to give them a chance at redemption. Overall, I'm still rooting for Manning to get on the field no matter who he replaces.

Zero2Cool
12 years ago
I didn't know the top priority of a linebacker was coverage. Packers should dump all their linebackers and put safeties there instead as they can typically cover better than linebackers. 😉
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DoddPower
12 years ago

I didn't know the top priority of a linebacker was coverage. Packers should dump all their linebackers and put safeties there instead as they can typically cover better than linebackers. ;)

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



Well, to be fair, I'm exclusively speaking of sub-packages (nickle, dime, etc.) in my posts in this thread. I actually don't have a big problem even with Hawk in base 3-4 alignments, especially if the defense is getting good defensive line play. I think the thread has generally got off track because I don't think it's premise was specifically discussing coverage skills on the linebackers (but I was). 🇹🇹 + 🇲🇲 =🇦🇷


See, I can do math!
Zero2Cool
12 years ago
I think Bishop is clearly the better inside linebacker on the Packers roster, even if he can't cover Adrian Peterson in the flat. He's a good tackler and brings it. 2010 season, when Nick Barnett went down with an injury and Bishop filled in, the defense just looked 'tougher'. I'll take a guy who is good tackler over someone who is good in coverage. A blend of Brandon Chillar and Desmond Bishop would be neat too.
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PackerTraxx
12 years ago
We could have had two all pro LBs and they would have consistently gotten beat with the time opposing QBs had to pass. Even the great ones will have trouble covering for 5,6,7 seconds and more. If Manning can beat someone out...great...that means we have improved the position. But I wouldn't bet on it.
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beast (9h) : Yeah, but also some of the wording suggestions Jax only pranked called the QB, not the others... and if he had an open spreadsheet & 3 calls
beast (9h) : Thank goodness he's not leaving the Turtle in the Red Tide
Mucky Tundra (9h) : Cowboys 1st round pick Tyler Booker will indeed be bringing his pet turtle to Dallas with him
Mucky Tundra (9h) : that contained all prospects info and contact
Mucky Tundra (9h) : beast, according the Falcons statement Jax came across it on an ipad. If I had to guess, probably an open spread sheet or something
Zero2Cool (9h) : Simmons put up an emoji with cheese.
beast (10h) : Not sure anyone is interested in Isaiah Simmons... Collin Oliver might of taken his potential slot
beast (10h) : I'm going with Jax Ulbrich is not telling the whole truth... he accidentally came across it? Why would a defensive coordinator have a QB #?
Zero2Cool (11h) : He's not that great, but final piece of the script.\
Zero2Cool (11h) : If we add Isaiah Simmons, book your Super Bowl tickets
Mucky Tundra (11h) : Colts 1st round TE Tyler Warren also got prank called, was that Jax Ulbrich as well?
Zero2Cool (11h) : Jax Ulbrich, Jeff Ulbrich’s son, released an apology for his role in the Shedeur Sanders prank call.
Martha Careful (11h) : apparently he did not participate in practice or play on the east west shrine game nor the NFL combine. The kid was a mediocre spoiled brat
Mucky Tundra (11h) : Yeah that one that was a super wounded duck that Sanders supporters are highlighting to prove a point
Zero2Cool (12h) : Shough is the guy who missed guys at combine isn't he?
beast (12h) : It's not official until I'm dead! I have a chance still! (Not really)
Mucky Tundra (21h) : I could feel my body decomposing in real time when I read that
Mucky Tundra (21h) : @MIKEYSAINRISTIL Tyler Shough will officially be the last person drafted to the NFL born in the 1900’s
Mucky Tundra (26-Apr) : saw the tweet, he meant the city
Mucky Tundra (26-Apr) : Was that for the team or the city?
Zero2Cool (26-Apr) : Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter · 3m Draft grade is in: Green Bay gets an A. The people, the city, the venue were all superb. NFL Draft’s next
Zero2Cool (26-Apr) : Matt LaFleur says Jaire Alexander is participating in #Packers offseason program, which has been conducted virtually during this first week
Zero2Cool (26-Apr) : ✅ ...
buckeyepackfan (26-Apr) : Check
Zero2Cool (26-Apr) : Matthew Golden cahanged 81 to 22??
TheKanataThrilla (26-Apr) : Sam Howell to Vikings...guess no Aaron
Martha Careful (26-Apr) : 1 round 7 min, with one extra minute if there is a trade. 2nd round 4 minutes, 3rd -3, 2 thereafter IMO
Martha Careful (26-Apr) : Agree
dfosterf (26-Apr) : Great idea imo
dfosterf (26-Apr) : 1st round to 7 minutes with one extension
dfosterf (26-Apr) : NFL comissioner wants to shorten the 2st
Mucky Tundra (26-Apr) : @jalenreagors They’re discussing if Sheduer can go back to college on NFL Network LMFAOOOOO
beast (26-Apr) : Great point Martha
beast (26-Apr) : Buddy Ryan used to say if a candy bar goes missing, there are two to blame, Rex and Rob 🤪 jk 😁
Martha Careful (26-Apr) : Bum Phillips used to say there are two ways to get better. Get better players or get players to play better. We have a new DL coach
Zero2Cool (26-Apr) : Yes. Look at the losses last year. They can win.
beast (26-Apr) : Can Packers win with their current DL?
bboystyle (26-Apr) : waiting for a pass rusher.
dfosterf (25-Apr) : 5 minutes between picks in the 3rd
dfosterf (25-Apr) : 3rd. Hate this phone
dfosterf (25-Apr) : 4rd
dfosterf (25-Apr) : 5 minutes in the 4
dfosterf (25-Apr) : 7 minutes between picks in the 2nd round
Martha Careful (25-Apr) : Sorry to bitch, but the headline writers in that section absolutely mislead, or don't know how to read. It is maddening
Martha Careful (25-Apr) : No thanks. Not a dependable guy to be in the right place and run the right route. Dumb as a box of rocks.
Zero2Cool (25-Apr) : Losing 2nd round pick for a one year rental, not ideal. Especially a headcase.
TheKanataThrilla (25-Apr) : Pickens for Jaire may be interesting. Definitely not sure we want Pickens long term.
dfosterf (25-Apr) : No.Absolutely not
Zero2Cool (25-Apr) : NO NO NO NO NO NO!!1 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬
dhazer (25-Apr) : scenario: Our main prospects are off the board when our pick comes around, do we just throw a 2nd round pick at Pittsburgh for Pickens
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