Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
12 years ago
I guess I'm not sure why suicide should change the respect we do or do not have for a person.

We've had this discussion before (I looked, but I couldn't find the thread -- I'm search challenged). It seems to me that there are two kinds of suicide. One is the kind that happens because the person got caught with his or her hands in the the cookie jar, fondling five year olds, or whatnot, and doesn't want to have to endure public disgrace. The other is the one that comes because of some serious mental illness like depression. I think our reaction, our decision about "respect", should be different in the two cases.

The "avoiding disgrace" variety involves a variety of cowardice, an unwillingness to "take's one medicine" that compounds the offense to our sensibilities brought on by the person's original bad acts. Not respecting the suicide in such cases makes some sense.

I've seen nothing to suggest that Seau's action was of this type, however. You never know what kind of skeletons another person has in his closet, but it seems to me highly, highly unlikely based on the information out there so far.

But the "mental illness/depression" variety is a very different thing, and insofar as Seau's death was in fact suicide, I think this is much more likely the reason. When something like depression gets hold of a person to the extent that he or she seriously contemplates suicide, that person's mental balance has become such that he is not capable of thinking like a "reasonable" person. This is why it is so, so important to get those people to get help -- when things are this bad, no one, no matter how "strong" or "adult" they are, is capable of pulling himself up by his own bootstraps. Apart from serendipity (or, if share my worldview, divine intervention) you , this is *not* something you can do without help.

And, unfortunately, if the person has gone this far out of balance, by definition its going to be more and more difficult to see the need to get help, more and more difficult to see the point in getting help. If the person has gone this far out of balance, he is literally unlikely to be capable of weighing the effects of his choice on kids, family, other loved ones.

And, also unfortunately, it isn't always to see when you are crossing the line between moderate mental illness (where you still can distinguish between what is possible and what is not, where you can still distinguish between your own despair and your responsibility to children and others) and severe mental illness (where you cannot). We know a lot more about the chemistry and biology and neurology of the brain than we used to -- and have some wonderful drugs/therapy methods now -- but what we don't know still dwarfs what we do.

For this second kind of suicide cases, in my opinion, the question of respect simply shouldn't enter into our opinions at all. It is sad, beyond sad, that Seau's kids will have to live the rest of their lives knowing that he did or might have commit suicide. But that doesn't mean the rest of us should change how we feel about their father's essential character. We can feel sad that something happened to disturb his mental state enough to take him down this path, something that cut him permanently off from his children (and, for that matter, if one believes a certain way, cut him permanently off from God). But more than that we should not do.

The reality is that if the person is suicidally depressed, the only escapes ALL require the person to put himself first. Not just the escape of suicide, but the escape to health via treatment. If Daddy is to get better, Daddy has to commit himself to healing himself first and fulfilling his obligations (family as well as economic or otherwise) second. Only after he has got sufficiently on the path to healing, can those other things be brought back into the equation.

Be sad about the tragedy. But don't judge the person just because he was the one who pulled the trigger.




And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
TheKanataThrilla
12 years ago

I guess I'm not sure why suicide should change the respect we do or do not have for a person.

We've had this discussion before (I looked, but I couldn't find the thread -- I'm search challenged). It seems to me that there are two kinds of suicide. One is the kind that happens because the person got caught with his or her hands in the the cookie jar, fondling five year olds, or whatnot, and doesn't want to have to endure public disgrace. The other is the one that comes because of some serious mental illness like depression. I think our reaction, our decision about "respect", should be different in the two cases.

The "avoiding disgrace" variety involves a variety of cowardice, an unwillingness to "take's one medicine" that compounds the offense to our sensibilities brought on by the person's original bad acts. Not respecting the suicide in such cases makes some sense.

I've seen nothing to suggest that Seau's action was of this type, however. You never know what kind of skeletons another person has in his closet, but it seems to me highly, highly unlikely based on the information out there so far.

But the "mental illness/depression" variety is a very different thing, and insofar as Seau's death was in fact suicide, I think this is much more likely the reason. When something like depression gets hold of a person to the extent that he or she seriously contemplates suicide, that person's mental balance has become such that he is not capable of thinking like a "reasonable" person. This is why it is so, so important to get those people to get help -- when things are this bad, no one, no matter how "strong" or "adult" they are, is capable of pulling himself up by his own bootstraps. Apart from serendipity (or, if share my worldview, divine intervention) you , this is *not* something you can do without help.

And, unfortunately, if the person has gone this far out of balance, by definition its going to be more and more difficult to see the need to get help, more and more difficult to see the point in getting help. If the person has gone this far out of balance, he is literally unlikely to be capable of weighing the effects of his choice on kids, family, other loved ones.

And, also unfortunately, it isn't always to see when you are crossing the line between moderate mental illness (where you still can distinguish between what is possible and what is not, where you can still distinguish between your own despair and your responsibility to children and others) and severe mental illness (where you cannot). We know a lot more about the chemistry and biology and neurology of the brain than we used to -- and have some wonderful drugs/therapy methods now -- but what we don't know still dwarfs what we do.

For this second kind of suicide cases, in my opinion, the question of respect simply shouldn't enter into our opinions at all. It is sad, beyond sad, that Seau's kids will have to live the rest of their lives knowing that he did or might have commit suicide. But that doesn't mean the rest of us should change how we feel about their father's essential character. We can feel sad that something happened to disturb his mental state enough to take him down this path, something that cut him permanently off from his children (and, for that matter, if one believes a certain way, cut him permanently off from God). But more than that we should not do.

The reality is that if the person is suicidally depressed, the only escapes ALL require the person to put himself first. Not just the escape of suicide, but the escape to health via treatment. If Daddy is to get better, Daddy has to commit himself to healing himself first and fulfilling his obligations (family as well as economic or otherwise) second. Only after he has got sufficiently on the path to healing, can those other things be brought back into the equation.

Be sad about the tragedy. But don't judge the person just because he was the one who pulled the trigger.



Originally Posted by: Wade 



I've lost my father who was only 49 at the time. I've lost a child who was only two weeks old. I would give anything to have them back in my life, but they were snatched away from me. That is why it pisses me off when people kill themselves. Everything special in his kids life will be painful because he is not there to share it with them. That is why I say they deserved better.



Zero2Cool
12 years ago

I've lost my father who was only 49 at the time. I've lost a child who was only two weeks old. I would give anything to have them back in my life, but they were snatched away from me. That is why it pisses me off when people kill themselves. Everything special in his kids life will be painful because he is not there to share it with them. That is why I say they deserved better.

Originally Posted by: TheKanataThrilla 



I find those who threaten to and commit suicide cowardly. Always have, always will. When you threaten it, you are seeking attention and you do need attention, medical attention. I mean that with respect. If you want to end your life, yes, you need help and there is NOTHING wrong with that. Life can be a bitch at times and sometimes... we just need someone to be there to help us through the rough patches.

Thing is, those whom threaten suicide, seldom go through with it. They tell others because they want to be stopped, they want someone to tell them their life has meaning ... which they are feeling otherwise.

When one follows through and ends their life, it effects far more people than you yourself realize. This is an easy statement because if you end your life, you're convinced everyone will be better off without you or won't notice you're gone.

Junior Seau was a fantastic athlete and from what I've heard was a very good man who just couldn't adjust to life without football. The thing that bothers me is instead of finding solutions for football afterlife, former players are collaborating on a lawsuit against the NFL. I don't remember anyone holding a gun to any NFL player telling them to choose NFL as their profession or telling them to go out on the field.

I do side with the players in that they trusted the medical staff and coaches to do them right and I think more often than not, they were just told to get on the field.
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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
12 years ago
Kevin,
I don't disagree with anything you said except the use of "cowardly" as a descriptor. "Cowardly" is a comment on character, and any character trait is something that a person can cognitively choose to have or not have. Calling someone "cowardly" implies the belief that the person in question has an "ability to choose coherently and reasonably." You can't be a coward unless you possess a particular sort of mental state, any more than you can commit first degree murder without a particular sort of mental state. You can kill someone, and be institutionalized for killing them, but you cannot commit the crime called "murder." In my opinion, we should approach suicide in a similar way. The person who commits murder with malice aforethought should be condemned, and so should the person who commits suicide while in full possession of his or her faculties. And such condemnation can include the word "cowardly." A person of high social reputation who defrauds lots of senior citizens of their retirement funds, who upon getting caught commits suicide -- that person *is* a coward.

But just as we should not attach negatives to the character of the person who kills while insane (it's not Old Yeller's "fault" he was rabid), we should not attach negatives to the character of the person who kills himself while unable to reason clearly. And there are a lot of suicides, unfortunately, who lack that cognitive ability. People who, if they didn't lack that cognitive ability, wouldn't succumb to the temptation.

Condemn the act, sure, we can do that. Institutionalize the person, yes. (The insanity defense should not be a "go free" card, merely a reason for putting someone in custody in a way other than a prison for "criminals.") But condemn the person's character for failures which are beyond the person's cognitive control?

Not in my opinion.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Zero2Cool
12 years ago
Do you know what a filibuster is? Of course you do. :-)

Suicide is a cowardly act, whether one follows through with it or merely threatens it. It's cowardly. Cowards take the perceived 'easy' way out. Hypothetically speaking, lets say Junior couldn't handle life without football so he committed suicide. That is cowardly. What about his family? What about his children? What about his friends? It's selfish and cowardly. I've had discussions about suicide with my mother more times than I care to count before she passed away. My comments about suicide echo exactly what I told her July 2007 ... less than a year before she passed away.
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Pack93z
12 years ago
I disagree with the label of weak or cowardly being tossed at those that commit, attempt or threaten suicide.. to me it is clear that they have deep emotional or medical issues that are pushing them to that option.

I would rather have someone I care about reach out via a threat of suicide than fear disclosing their issues, bottling them up and not recovering from their state.

Mental or emotional health is just as important if not more important than physical health.. most can just mask the former better than the latter.

I have seen the affects of depression in both short and long term situations.. I lived through my own depression and destructive phase of recovery.. and I never considered myself a coward. I never attempted suicide, never considered it.. but I certainly tempted my fate more than a time or two without a hint of fear.

In my opinion, it is easy to dismiss the trials of another and just label them as weak or as a coward. Degrading them certainly isn't going to help.. motivating them or trying to help them out of their place in life may be hard but it may just turn them around.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Zero2Cool
12 years ago
Who's saying those who threaten to commit or commit suicide are weak or are a coward or is degrading them? Fairly certain it was said they obviously need medical attention and there's nothing wrong with that. Also pretty sure it's the act of suicide that's being "labeled".

Isn't it obvious it would be better for whomever is considering suicide to talk about their issues an seek help? I don't really understand the direction of your post, nor what sparked the holier than thou tone.

After staring at it for 33 minutes, I'm done trying to figure it out because the more I read it, the more pissed off I'm getting. Maybe having suicide in my life since I was very young and continues even today has me defensive like a little girl with sand in their vagina. Dunno.

All I know is life is what we make it. Sometimes its horseshit and we have to roll with the punches, but no ones measuring us by how many times we get knocked down ... fuck that ... we're measured by how many times we get back up and say LOOKS WHO'S BACK FOR MORE MOTHER FUCKER!!
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Pack93z
12 years ago
It is an opinion on the current direction of the thread, nothing more or less. Certainly not holier than thou or intended to be a personal attack upon anyone or their opinion.

Here is the crux of my problem with the pinning "weak" or "cowardly" upon those that are threatening suicide.. in my opinion (for those that are actually contemplating it) it is a step in reaching out for help. If it is viewed as a weakness it is just one more incentive not to reach out for help and actually follow through with the attempt.

Is it selfish, probably looking from the outside in.

After my accident I lived for a couple of years in the darkness of what I probably would deem depression. I never went and talked to a professional, so I cannot sit here and tell you it was clinical depression. But I can tell you the world wasn't a happy place, I felt alone even though I was far from it. My world seemed closed off and all that I worked for up to then was gone. Daily I would pull on a face for the world that I was fine, but inside I was torn up and trashed. I cared about others way more than I cared about myself.. but I haunted my own mind with what could have been and almost daily dreamed of a day where the pain was over. Not just the physical pain (that has never left) but the emotional pain, the mental torture one puts themselves through.

Again, I never thought or contemplated suicide. But I certainly did not fear death, and I took chances that I had no business taking. In that time, because I was consumed with my little own dark world, my thoughts were not if I died how would it impact others. There was no way I could see that far outside my pain.. I can guarantee that was never a thought.

The only thoughts were to make it through another day.. I drank before school to dim the pain. I avoided sporting events all together. I was coping, doing anything to feel like I was keeping my head above the rising water. It consumed me. Literally.

Living was a struggle.. finding something to cling to like a life preserver was a daily mission. Probably the only mission.

I wish I would have sought help, it may have prompted me to recover faster. But I had to put on this tough and rugged face for the world.. why?

So see.. in my view, from those years I do not see it as a weakness. Or Cowardly. Or a plea for attention, hell that is the last thing I wanted. I avoided attention like the plague. All I wanted to do was survive.

There.. way the hell more than ever should be disclosed upon a web site, but screw it, it is who the hell I was.. part of what makes me ... well me. And if it helps another soul or paints a better understanding of the struggle.. even a little bit, then it is worth it.

So again.. it is not holier than thou. It is not an attempt to criticize another opinion. It is most simply an opinion on the topic, littered with a small bit of experience.

And by the way.. I live daily by the motto, you need to get up daily and smack the grind of life in the mouth. I just happen to know that I am not in the dark place that I once was.. and I am able to seek the challenges of life with a passion.

It just wasn't always that way.. sometimes the demons of our mind speak to loudly and cloud your vision.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Zero2Cool
12 years ago

It is an opinion on the current direction of the thread, nothing more or less. Certainly not holier than thou or intended to be a personal attack upon anyone or their opinion.

Originally Posted by: Pack93z 



Sorry for coming off like a prick. Thank you for clearing it up. I know how I feel about suicide and it's because of many personal and close losses dating back to losing my friend Matt to suicide the day before my 18th birthday. For a long time I had dreams where he came to me, said he wanted to say his goodbyes, and I did everything I could think of to show him he had lots to live for. I mean anything from rollercoasters, swimming, playing volleyball, hot air balloon ride, threw football, played baseball, anything and everything I could think of ... even in the dreams my fear of heights was felt convincing me when I woke up they were real. I did everything I could in my dream to save him. He still went through with it. I knew him since 2nd grade and he sat behind me in 7th hour.

I'm going to split some of these posts off into a new thread and I'll respond more thoroughly an respectfully to your post. I just wanted to apologize first and then get back to fixing the site.
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zombieslayer
12 years ago
Pack - Thanks for sharing your experiences. It gives a human side to tragedy.

I don't know what went on in Seau's brain but now I'm hearing rumors of concussions. So there's a decent chance his demons were physical and not emotional.
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