nerdmann
13 years ago
Starters: Neal, Raji, Pickett.
Backups: CJ Wilson, Green, Lawrence Guy. Plus there's Wynn. Wynn's kind of a pass rushing DE for a 4-3, but the dude could pounds some Gilbert Burgers and make the transition. Anyway I think that's decent depth. We really don't need Harrell, but is he worth taking a look at? 1.2 is only one % of the overall salary cap.
If healthy, is Harrell better than any of those guys?
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
13 years ago
Assorted thoughts:

1. Presumably, they have time before league year starts to give him a physical. Last year, he was iffy from the get go because of the back. Is everyone certain that he's going to be equally iffy this year? Does *anyone* know the state of his back right now?
2. Those with more medical knowledge than me can speak to this .... is the ability/likelihood of coming back from an ACL in any way affected by the quality of the guy's back? If you want to say, "he's had enough chances, and he's just shown he's never going to play a full season," fine, but it seems to me that you have to at least think about distinguishing between the injuries. Anyone can blow out an ACL, regardless of their injury history. See, ahem, Mike Neal. And unless you can demonstrate to me that recovery from an ACL is made worse by JH's particular injury history, it seems to me, it's not a slam dunk to say he's "just going to get injured again." Again, I think the key question has to be his back changes the equation or not. If he does, he's gone. If he's not, then you ask the questions you ask of anyone returning from his particular injury.
3. I can't help thinking of Mike Flanagan. Flanagan was arguably the best center the Packers have had since Larry McCarren. And how much did he show early? Drafted 1996. First played: 1998. First year with significant action: 1999 (year 4). Harrell: Drafted 2007. So, had he not blown out his knee (new injury), last year would have been the equivalent of Flanagan's year 4.
Am I saying Harrell is the next Flanagan. Heck, no. All I am saying in point #3 is that there are times when it proves the guy is worth the wait. Lots of people thought the Packers were nuts for keeping with Flanagan so long because of his injuries. Heck, I was one of them. And we were all wrong.
4. I sometimes wonder how much of the antipathy toward Harrell among Packer fans is an unconscious consequence of a single picture, the one that has been posted here several times, the one from training camp where Harrell looks like, well, like a spaced-out dope. I'm sure everyone knows which picture I mean. But, gee, everyone looks like a dope sometimes when they don't know the camera is looking. Heck, some of us look like a dope all the time.
5. Okay, its a 1.2 million risk to keep him through training camp in case he gets injured enough to put on IR. Is he more of a risk than other players currently making 1.2 million or more? Perhaps. Again, the question to me here has to center on the back, not on the knee.
5A. What are the rules involved in waiving someone who is injured during camp? I presume there's some kind of workmen's comp implication -- though I'd be really surprised if that was 1.2 million worth of liability. Are you prohibited from waiving without putting them on IR first? Are you required to pay their entire contract salary? (I ask because I don't know.)
6. I still think people are a bit optimistic about the state of our DE roster if/when Jenkins moved on. Right now, there is NO ONE proven as a full-time starter at DE except Pickett, and he's a DT by profession. I *love* Howard Green, but he's also a DT and aging with potential weight questions. Neal offers a lot of exciting stuff, but one great looking training camp/preseason does not a quality full-time starter prove. He's in the "optimistic" category, but he's also still in the "potential" category. Same with CJ Wilson. And the rookies, drafted or (likely) free agent alike, are only potential.
It would be one thing if the Packers truly were deep at DE. But they aren't. It's one of the two positions with biggest questions right now. Given that, to me, if I'm operating with a $120 million budget for players, I'd be willing to take a risk of between 600K (the roster bonus) and 1.2 million for someone who I once considered a first round talent.
Again, depending on what I thought the back was going to be like. To me, that back is the big thing that makes Harrell different in terms of "being worth keeping".
He doesn't have a bad attitude (no, a bad picture doesn't show that.) He's not obviously stupid and unteachable (no, that picture doesn't show that, either. Some of the smartest students I've had over the years look like complete morons; and some of the smartest/most attentive-looking students I've were morons.. He hasn't shown anything particularly good on the field, but he hasn't shown anything particularly bad on the field either -- he gets an incomplete because he hasn't turned in enough assignments yet.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Greg C.
13 years ago
Lots of good points in there, Wade. I think Harrell's back is fine. I'm pretty sure it was fine last year, and now it's had another year to get stronger. The question is whether it is susceptible to being reinjured. There's no way to know the answer to that until he gets extensive playing time. I don't think he's worth the risk anymore.

I think our DE situation is okay. A team that has nothing but proven full-time starters is a team that is over the hill. With Thompson as GM, there will be constant turnover in the starting lineup, with at least a few young guys stepping in to replace vets every year. Last year it was Starks, Bulaga, Quarless, Bishop, Zombo/Walden, Peprah, and Tramon Williams. Except for Quarless, that's a very good bunch of players.

I could easily see Mike Neal being a solid addition to the starting lineup this year. C.J. Wilson and Howard Green have already proven to be good backups, plus they have Wynn and the new guy they drafted. If you want proven starters as your starters and starting quality players as backups, you are always going to be disappointed. You have to count on Ted bringing in fresh talent every year, and the coaching staff developing that talent. The Packers have done well in that department recently.
blank
macbob
13 years ago
Wade-past years I've been onboard with giving JH a tryout, with his salary (fairly low) being at risk if he got injured.

This year, I'm not dissing on JH, on his talent, on his work ethic, etc. I've just gotten to the point where I have no confidence that he will stay healthy. Even if his talent, etc gave him an edge over another of our defensive linemen, I'd go with the other lineman--JH's injury history is just too abysmal and back injuries are notorious for flaring up again.

On the cost of keeping him if he's injured during training camp--you can offer an injury settlement, but they don't have to take it (Josh Bell). If they don't take it, they go on IR and get paid their full salary for the year. So, very quickly (Fri, 29 Jul, when he qualifies for the roster bonus) we could end up on the hook for $1.2M.

So, if his injury history renders him too unreliable to waste a roster spot--no matter what he does in a shortened training camp after playing only 14 games in the last 4 years--then why waste the $1.2M on him to see what he can do?
DoddPower
13 years ago
Is there anyway he can be cut and be brought back for a vets minimum one year contract type situation without much financial harm to the Packers? If so, I'd definitely be up for giving him another chance.
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member Topic Starter
13 years ago

Is there anyway he can be cut and be brought back for a vets minimum one year contract type situation without much financial harm to the Packers? If so, I'd definitely be up for giving him another chance.

Originally Posted by: doddpower 



Interesting.
UserPostedImage
Nonstopdrivel
13 years ago
The veteran minimum  for a player with Harrell's experience is $685,000. That would be enough to sign two rookies at the minimum and does not represent a huge savings in either case.
UserPostedImage
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member Topic Starter
13 years ago

The veteran minimum  for a player with Harrell's experience is $685,000. That would be enough to sign two rookies at the minimum and does not represent a huge savings in either case.

Originally Posted by: Nonstopdrivel 



After watching you get ripped I won't argue with you any more. :-"













:-k Well maybe just a little. [grin1]
UserPostedImage
bozz_2006
13 years ago
I think it depends on the quality of depth on the d-line. If it's pretty shallow, I think you'll see him with the team. Until he gets hurt again, that is. I just want the guy to make it through one, ONE, season.

UserPostedImage
dfosterf
13 years ago
At this point I say, "fuck it". Pay the rest of the money and let's see what happens. We have sunk so much money in an untenable situation, but yet the thought lingers... "What if this fat fuck actually gets his health back?" I don't mind calling him names and deriding him-- He has pocketed all those millions for not doing shit. He still keeps getting a pass in the media (this would not happen on my eastern seaboard, I don't think) plus by the organization itself...



Fuck it, we paid for him, he's got a shot to play for a Super Bowl Champ, redeem himself, etc. My leash is obviously RE EXTENDED through this camp, the fucker better come through this time. 🙏


(I'm getting played, again, but damn, he has good excuses, or some such shit, and I'm from Wisconsin, which practically defines a friggin' rube.)

:-k
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