Pack93z
  • Pack93z
  • Select Member Topic Starter
13 years ago
Simple.. currently supported by the laws on the books.. but CFTC isn't enforcing said law. Why.. because of kick back money.. and Wade wonders why I place blame on the corruptions in government for many if not most of this countries current issues.



Editorial: Real problem with gas prices is oil speculators  


"Trading Places," the characters played by Eddie Murphy and Dan Aykroyd destroy the stability of the orange commodities market over a $1 bet.

By speculating on the relative success or failure of the coming orange crop, the two Wall Street traders drive the price up and down in a single day, bankrupting the two Wall Street villains who also were trying to corner the market.

In a case of life imitating art, today's oil market isn't far from the fantasy of that movie.

While we American gas guzzlers received a relative reprieve this week as prices fell below $4 for a gallon of gas, today's oil market is driven more by speculators than by the actual push and pull between producers and consumers that is the very basis of the free market.

The good news for those of us feeling lighter in the wallet after our daily commutes is that there is a relatively simple solution to the problem.

The bad news is that most of our politicians would rather fight straw men than solve actual problems.

The natural reaction of Washington politicians when gas prices rise is to blame the president or blame the oil companies. Both make easy targets. So, here in Missouri, we have Sen. Claire McCaskill, a Democrat, calling for oil subsidies to be cut and oil refinery profits to be investigated. And Sen. Roy Blunt, a Republican, repeats the "drill, baby, drill" mantra from 2008 when prices last topped $4, and he blames President Barack Obama for the lack of drilling.

The president, also searching for demons, says he'll appoint a commission to investigate fraud and manipulation in the markets.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

The real culprit is Wall Street. That was the case in 2008, when the price of gas topped $4 in the U.S. for the first time. And it's the case again today.

Sen. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., has it right. She and 16 other senators, including Republican Susan Collins of Maine, wrote a letter to the Commodities Futures Trade Commission asking that the federal agency do its job.

The trade commission exists to help bring stability to the commodities markets. The market allows producers, such as farmers, and consumers, such as grocers, to hedge their bets on future pricing of farm goods, precious metals and oil. The pressure from those who produce the goods and those who consume them, working against each other to find the proper price point, determines a fair market for goods.

But since the early part of the last decade, when the federal government quietly allowed the nation's biggest banks, like Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, to begin selling financial products that were, in effect, gambles that the price of oil would continue to rise, the market has skewed away from stability. Today, speculators control about 70 percent of the market, whereas for most of the last century that number was 30 percent or less. That means that the companies actually producing the oil and the consumers using it have little to do with the overall price.

So while supply and demand haven't fundamentally changed in the past year, the price of a gallon of gasoline has skyrocketed, and then dropped, and spiked again. The reason is pure, unadulterated gambling by Wall Street financiers.

Exxon CEO Rex Tillerson made that clear last week when he told Ms. Cantwell in a hearing that if not for the speculators, the price of a barrel of oil today would be between $60 and $70, not the $98 it was at the time. For consumers, that means we'd be paying closer to $2.50 per gallon, as compared to the $3.76 it cost per gallon on Tuesday in much of St. Louis County.

Ms. Cantwell and the other right-thinking senators have asked the Commodities Futures Trade Commission to act to reduce the excessive speculation in the market.

"While there has been little change in the balance of the world's oil supply and demand since 2008, oil prices have jumped around from $147 per barrel, to $31, to $86, to around $104 today," the senators wrote last week. "Just last week, WTI crude oil plunged 8.6 percent in one day, the largest drop ever in absolute terms, which according to multiple media outlets corresponded with a rapid withdrawal of positions by oil market speculators."

The commission not only has the authority to reduce the affect of oil speculators on the free market, but it also is required to do so under the Dodd-Frank Wall Street reform legislation signed by President Barack Obama last year. The rules would require commodities purchasers to have more skin in the game, thus reducing the incentive for speculators to enter the market relatively cheaply with an intent simply to turn a quick profit.

In layman's terms, the gamblers would be forced to "ante up" or put a meaningful down payment on their bets, rather than effectively signing a slip with their bookie. They also would be limited from placing too many bets on one game. In other words, one deep-pocketed oil speculator could not, through the weight of his highly leveraged bets, change the odds for everybody else. These simple acts, already allowed under law, would return the oil market to the relative stability it sustained before the past six years.

We don't understand why Ms. McCaskill and Mr. Blunt (or Illinois senators Mark Kirk, a Republican, and Dick Durbin, a Democrat) wouldn't sign on to such a letter, unless, of course, they are unwilling to provoke the Wall Street financiers who fund their campaign coffers.

Providing stability to the oil commodities market that helps consumers would be the one thing that could immediately bring some relief at the pump. It protects the farmers, the oil companies, utilities and other big businesses that depend on the stability of the commodities market. And it frees up investment from the speculators and big banks that will have to go elsewhere.

"This is a no-lose proposition," University of Maryland law professor Michael Greenberger, a former director of the CFTC's trading division, told us. "The only thing you're stopping is gambling."


"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
13 years ago
I never wonder when people put the blame on government.

I wonder why people don't put the blame on government enough.

😁


Though the article makes the usual mistake about speculators and their "power".

No question that speculation can lead to bigger short term swings in price (and big profits to those who successfully speculate).

But the thing that people forget is that the speculator-induced swings are temporary swings. No speculator can control a market's overall trend. Just ask the Hunts from Texas. The overall trend is still determined by the fundamentals of physical supply and buyer demand. Speculators can't keep the price "up" at the gas pump -- only buyers and their willingness to pay more can do that.

The big losers from speculation aren't you or me. They're other speculators.

If you want to play a market (a commodity market, a stock market, or any market, to take advantage of short term fluctuations, feel free. But if you don't want to, you don't have to. You might occasionally fill your tank up on the wrong day (if you happen to run out when it's at 3.99 instead of 3.89), but you're not going to regularly have to pay too much just because of what the day-to-speculators do.

You're going to pay too much because there are too many people like you and I who are convinced we can't "live without" the amount of gas we buy and because the people who sell us gas know it.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
13 years ago
Oh, yes, and the editorial writer didn't even get the movie right.

The Murphy and Akroyd characters didn't "destroy the stability of the orange commodities market." All they did is engender a one day movement up and down in a way that screwed other speculators (the Dukes).

Two things are certain in this world:
1. Politicians are pinheads.
2. So are journalists.

Sturgeon's Law lives.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
DakotaT
13 years ago
Funny, the only thing I remember from that movie was Jamie Lee's rack.
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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
13 years ago

Funny, the only thing I remember from that movie was Jamie Lee's rack.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT 



You know you're getting old when you remember Jamie Lee when she was young and trying to escape an "innocent" label. Everything after Trading Places, other than the occasional pic in a black dress, was downhill.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
DakotaT
13 years ago

You know you're getting old when you remember Jamie Lee when she was young and trying to escape an "innocent" label. Everything after Trading Places, other than the occasional pic in a black dress, was downhill.

Originally Posted by: Wade 



Yeah but this morning I joined the dawn patrol prostate gang, so yeah, I wore black today.
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wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
13 years ago
The Hunts screwed up the silver market in the late 70's.

Wiki 

Silver manipulation
Main article:
Silver Thursday 


Beginning in the early 1970s, Hunt and his brother William Herbert Hunt began accumulating large amounts of silver. By 1979, they had nearly cornered the global market.[6] In the last nine months of 1979, the brothers profited by an estimated $2 billion to $4 billion in silver speculation, with estimated silver holdings of 100 million ounces (6.25 million pounds).[7]

During the Hunt brothers' accumulation of the precious metal, prices of silver futures contracts and silver bullion during 1979 and 1980 rose from $11 an ounce in September 1979 to $50 an ounce in January 1980. Silver prices ultimately collapsed to below $11 an ounce two months later. The largest single day drop in the price of silver occurred on Silver Thursday.[1]

Hunt filed for bankruptcy under Chapter 11 of the Federal Bankruptcy Code in September 1988, largely due to lawsuits incurred as a result of his silver speculation.[1]

In 1989 in a settlement with the United States Commodity Futures Trading Commission, Nelson Bunker Hunt was fined US$10 million and banned from trading in the commodity markets as a result of civil charges of conspiring to manipulate the silver market stemming from his attempt to corner the market in silver.[1] This fine was in addition to a multimillion-dollar settlement to pay back taxes, fines and interest to the Internal Revenue Service for the same period.[1]



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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
13 years ago

The Hunts screwed up the silver market in the late 70's.

Wiki 


Originally Posted by: wpr 



But again, the only people who really lost much of anything, for all of the Hunts' machinations, were the speculators.

Including the Hunts themselves.

People who "play" the markets have no right to be protected from their folly.

And the rest of us have nothing to worry about.

(Well, regarding the impact of speculators, that is.)

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
vikesrule
13 years ago

But again, the only people who really lost much of anything, for all of the Hunts' machinations, were the speculators.

Including the Hunts themselves.

People who "play" the markets have no right to be protected from their folly.

And the rest of us have nothing to worry about.

(Well, regarding the impact of speculators, that is.)

Originally Posted by: Wade 



Not that I have great faith in Goldman Sachs , but....

Goldman Sachs saying speculators had pushed prices ahead of fundamentals 

Goldman Sachs (GS.N) rocked oil markets for a second day Tuesday by calling for a nearly $20 fall in Brent crude oil, saying speculators had pushed prices ahead of fundamentals...
...On Tuesday, Goldman chief energy analyst David Greely said the recent run-up in prices, in which Brent rallied as much as 33 percent since the start of the year, looked overdone.

"While prices are back at levels of spring 2008, supply-demand fundamentals are significantly less tight,"


Nonstopdrivel
13 years ago

May 18, 2011
What's Really Behind Rising Margin Requirements for Commodity Futures 

By Jon D. Markman, Contributing Writer, Money Morning

CME Group Inc. (Nasdaq: CME), which provides an electronic exchange for commodity futures, raised margin requirements for trading silver futures contracts on May 4 - resulting in a steep drop in silver prices.

A similar thing happened last week in the oil futures market when the CME Group last Monday raised margin requirements on oil contracts by 25%.

While the impact of that decision was not immediately felt, it seemed to have a delayed effect on the futures market. By Wednesday, there was so much selling that the exchanges had to close trading in oil and gasoline to chill everyone out for a while.

Of course, the CME did not need to do this, as there are no set rules for raising margins and oil prices were already coming down.

So what exactly was the motivation? And why start with a 25% hike, which was much larger than the hike in silver margins?

One reason that was a bit hidden was a letter sent jointly by 17 U.S. senators to the U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) that demanded that position limits be put on speculators in energy futures and derivatives by May 23. The Dodd-Frank Act had already required position limits but had not yet implemented them.

Senators were apparently of the belief that the surge in oil prices last month was caused by speculators.

But the reality is that most energy trading is done by commercial hedging operations in which the owners of crude oil assets - basically oil companies like Whiting Petroleum Corp. (NYSE: WLL) - make deals to sell, say, half their production for the quarter at $90. Another party takes the other side of that trade. If oil is higher than $90, the hedger wins.

You could say that is speculation, but in reality it is providing a service to the oil company, allowing it to lock in prices at a level that will ensure a profit and the ability to keep up its drilling program.

Some analysts are now suggesting that a lot of the big commercial hedgers are going to simply pull up stakes and move their business offshore to other exchanges. That would be a shame, because without their speculations, our markets will face fewer ways to reduce their risk. It would be an unintended - albeit ironic - consequence that Congress' attempt to cut risk would end up increasing risk.

At the same time, it's apparent to some veterans that the government is trying to tell the public that investing in commodities is too volatile and that they should focus on buying stock and government bonds. If that's true, officials are playing a dangerous game, and I doubt they fully understand the potential consequences of their grandstanding.

Meanwhile, is it perhaps an odd coincidence that this measure was taken just before oil executives were due to be hauled up in front of Congress this week for their semi-annual flogging? I don't think so.

This politicization of markets can only work for a brief period. What happens when the oil price takes off due to the next Middle East war or a supply interruption? It is very doubtful that CME can control the global price of oil, and any attempt to do so will have unexpected consequences down the line.

We are at the threshold of a change of eras. For years, commodity prices were very sensitive to the actions taken at the U.S.-based exchanges because they all traded exclusively in dollars. That sensitivity will continue, but will diminish as demand shifts toward Asia. As that happens, the currency with which buyers pay for oil will increasingly not be dollars.

India is already paying for oil in rupees and China is paying for Russian oil in yuan. Some analysts argue that the commodity exchanges may be surprised by how high they have to raise margins in order to bring prices down. They may also be surprised by how fast markets snap back.

The real problem for all of us who trade stocks and not commodities is that futures traders react to the need for more margin in one of two ways: either by selling contracts to get their portfolios in line with the new requirements, or raising capital via the sale of other positions in commodities like corn or equities.

And that is the slop-over effect that we saw last week.

Yet looking down the line over the next few weeks, once that offloading of positions is complete, it may create a vacuum in which there are no more sellers. The silver debacle a few weeks ago reminded some analysts of the October 1987 stock market crash in that all the damage was done in one week. Following that 1987 crash the next up-phase started just six to eight weeks later in December.

So the question we're now left with is: If silver and oil are crushed now due to the CME action, will they stabilize and start to move much higher in a new up leg in July or August?'

My guess at this point is that they will, if for no other reason than that new turmoil is likely to arise in the Middle East and North Africa to threaten supply again. If so, we will be able to buy a lot of great energy companies cheap over the summer in anticipation of higher prices in the fall.

I will make sure you are ready for that.


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beast (3h) : Not nessarily, he might of been injured either way. He's playing about 50% of the games the last 4 years
Zero2Cool (9h) : If they'd been more patient with him, he'd be back already. Putting him out there vs Bears caused him to tweak it and here we are.
packerfanoutwest (10h) : well this is his last season with the PAck, book it
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Mucky Tundra (26-Dec) : Houston getting dog walked by Baltimore
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beast (24-Dec) : Sounds like no serious injuries from the Saints game and Jacobs and Watson should play in the Vikings game
packerfanoutwest (24-Dec) : both games Watson missed, Packers won
Martha Careful (24-Dec) : I hope all of you have a Merry Christmas!
Mucky Tundra (24-Dec) : Oh I know about Jacobs, I just couldn't pass up an opportunity to mimic Zero lol
buckeyepackfan (24-Dec) : Jacobs was just sat down, Watson re-injured that knee that kept him out 1 game earlier
buckeyepackfan (24-Dec) : I needed .14 that's. .14 points for the whole 4th quarter to win and go to the SB. Lol
Mucky Tundra (24-Dec) : Jacobs gonna be OK???
Zero2Cool (24-Dec) : Watson gonna be OK???
packerfanoutwest (24-Dec) : Inactives tonight for the Pack: Alexander- knee Bullard - ankle Williams - quad Walker -ankle Monk Heath
packerfanoutwest (24-Dec) : No Jaire, but hopefully the front 7 destroys the line of scrimmage & forces Rattler into a few passes to McKinney.
packerfanoutwest (24-Dec) : minny could be #1 seed and the Lions #5 seed
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : We'd have same Division and Conference records. Strength of schedule we edge them
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I just checked. What tie breaker?
bboystyle (23-Dec) : yes its possible but unlikely. If we do get the 5th, we face the NFCS winner
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : Ahh, ok.
bboystyle (23-Dec) : yes due to tie breaker
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I mean, unlikely, yes, but mathematically, 5th is possible by what I'm reading.
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : If Vikings lose out, Packers win out, Packers get 5th, right?
bboystyle (23-Dec) : Minny isnt going to lose out so 5th seed is out of the equation. We are playing for the 6th or 7th seed which makes no difference
Mucky Tundra (23-Dec) : beast, the ad revenue goes to the broadcast company but they gotta pay to air the game on their channel/network
beast (23-Dec) : If we win tonight the game is still relative in terms of 5th, 6th or 7th seed... win and it's 5th or 6th, lose and it's 6th or 7th
beast (23-Dec) : Mucky, I thought the ad revenue went to the broadcasting companies or the NFL, at least not directly
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I think the revenue share is moot, isn't it? That's the CBA an Salary Cap handling that.
bboystyle (23-Dec) : i mean game becomes irrelevant if we win tonight. Just a game where we are trying to play spoilers to Vikings chance at the #1 seed
Mucky Tundra (23-Dec) : beast, I would guess ad revenue from more eyes watching tv
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I would think it would hurt the home team because people would have to cancel last minute maybe? i dunno
beast (23-Dec) : I agree that it's BS for fans planning on going to the game. But how does it bring in more money? I'm guessing indirectly?
packerfanoutwest (23-Dec) : bs on flexing the game....they do it for the $$league$$, not the hometown fans
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I see what you did there Mucky
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : dammit. 3:25pm
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : Packers Vikings flexed to 3:35pm
Mucky Tundra (23-Dec) : Upon receiving the news about Luke Musgrave, I immediately fell to the ground
Mucky Tundra (23-Dec) : Yeah baby!
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : LUKE MUSGRAVE PLAYING TONIGHT~!~~~~WOWHOAAOHAOAA yah
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : I wanna kill new QB's ... blitz the crap out of them.
beast (23-Dec) : Barry seemed to get too conservative against new QBs, Hafley doesn't have that issue
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : However, we seem to struggle vs new QB's
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : Should be moot point, cuz Packers should win tonight.
packerfanoutwest (23-Dec) : ok I stand corrected
Zero2Cool (23-Dec) : Ok, yes, you are right. I see that now how they get 7th
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