Zero2Cool
16 years ago

In Sundays back-and-forth affair between the Packers and Vikings at the Metrodome, a pair of points awarded to the home team in the first half ended up being a huge factor in the one-point win by Minnesota.

It happened when Green Bay quarterback Aaron Rodgers was attempting to avoid being tackled in the end zone for a safety. While stumbling to the ground, he blindly flipped the ball in underhand fashion, conjuring memories of a certain quarterback who preceded Rodgers as a Packer.

Heres the video.
[youtube]Hgs5xw6ghKM[/youtube]


Pausing the video at 0:07 (Mmmmichael Scarn) shows that the ball landed less than two yards short of the line of scrimmage, and in the general vicinity of a receiver.

Initially, the officials awarded a safety to the Vikings. After an on-field conference during which the debate seemed to focus on whether a receiver was in the vicinity of the throw and/or whether the ball had gotten back to the line of scrimmage, referee Alberto Riveron announced that Rodgers had thrown an illegal forward pass, which equated to a safety.

In our view, Riveron called it an illegal forward pass because he realized that it wasnt intentional grounding. Under Rule 8, Section 3, Article 1 of the 2008 Official Playing Rules, intentional grounding would have occurred if there had not been a realistic chance of completing the pass, or if the ball had not landed near or beyond the line of scrimmage. (Rodgers clearly was out of the pocket, which is a prerequisite to avoiding a grounding call by throwing the ball near or beyond the line of scrimmage, regardless of whether a receiver is in the area.)

We base our conclusion in this regard on in-game images of Packers coach Mike McCarthys argument with the officials, which images strongly suggested that the decision resulted from the unconventional Favre-esque throwing motion that Rodgers had used. (McCarthy confirmed this after the game: The interpretation that I was given was that it was an unnatural throwing motion so with that decision it was a safety.)

It clearly wasnt a natural throwing motion; but the rules dont require a pass to be thrown with a natural motion. Under Rule 8, Section 1, Article 1, a legal forward pass is any pass (including an attempt to fumble forward) made from behind the line of scrimmage, if the ball hasnt moved beyond the line of scrimmage and then returned behind it. An illegal forward pass is 🅰ny other forward pass.

So the ungainly desperation toss by Rodgers wasnt an illegal forward pass.

The league apparently realizes this. In an e-mail on Sunday night, NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said that it wasnt an illegal forward pass, per se. It was intentional grounding, Aiello wrote. The QB was out of the pocket but he didnt get the ball back to the line of scrimmage. The ball was snapped from the 10 and the ball landed at the 8. The referee announced illegal forward pass, which is what intentional grounding is.

Riveron seemed to adopted this same approach after the game. When pressed by reporters on the illegal forward pass call, Riveron said, Intentional grounding.

But intentional grounding isnt an illegal forward pass. They are two distinct penalties, with two separate sets of consequences.

Intentional grounding results in a loss of ten yards or the spot of the foul, whichever is greater, and a loss of down. An illegal forward pass results in a five-yard penalty and no loss of down.

So well stand on our belief that Riveron played the illegal forward pass call based on the throwing motion, because one or more other members of his crew were insisting that a receiver was in the area and/or the ball was sufficiently near the line of scrimmage.

And so the lesson that this first-year referee likely has learned today is that I know it when I see it logic has no application to a 111-page rule book in which a visceral belief as to conduct that should trigger a penalty doesnt always constitute a violation.


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Formo
16 years ago
Interesting.

Question is.. if their is a different set of consequences for each penalty, what are they if the penalty happens in their offending teams own end zone? Same thing, a safety? Or what?
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Thanks to TheViking88 for the sig!!
NormaL
16 years ago
Was curious about that myself. Saftey or no depending on the call?
UserPostedImage
You want to finish your career here?
Favre: "Definitely. If in two years, say, they want to trade me, I'd probably walk away. Retire."
Formo
16 years ago
I did a little research.. And looks like it doesn't matter what the call was, Intentional Grounding or Illegal Forward Pass, if the QB is in his own end zone, it's ruled as a safety.

But, that's not definitive. I got that threw a 3rd party.
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Thanks to TheViking88 for the sig!!
obi1
16 years ago
So Can we take the 2 points off the score of the Vikings?

Put an asterisk on this game in the next year's Team media guide's results page as the "referee's wrong call,(illegal forward pass) that resulted in a safety" game
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Overkill
16 years ago
Anybody catch Aikman or Buck say they wouldn't even've called it if it'd been Favre? Refs made more than one :xcensoredx: up call.
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agopackgo4
16 years ago
we have been getting :xcensoredx: over alot this year, espicially on defense.
IronMan
16 years ago
I'm not going to complain about a call like this when we sucked as bad as we did.
NormaL
16 years ago
Peter King MMQB: The officials screwed up an early safety call on the Packers that, obviously, could have been a huge difference in a one-point Green Bay loss. While being upended in the end zone, Aaron Rodgers threw an underhanded pass that landed about three yards from Packers tight end Tory Humphrey, and ref Alberto Riveron called it an illegal forward pass. Only it wasn't, because quarterbacks often make underhanded scoop passes, which this was. After the game Riveron called it intentional grounding, and it wasn't that either, because Humphrey was so close. So this was a gift two points for the Vikes.
UserPostedImage
You want to finish your career here?
Favre: "Definitely. If in two years, say, they want to trade me, I'd probably walk away. Retire."
bozz_2006
16 years ago
we didn't deserve to win anyway. not worth thinking aobut, imo.
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Martha Careful (7h) : RIP Packer Safety Tim Brown
beast (27-Apr) : Yeah, but also some of the wording suggestions Jax only pranked called the QB, not the others... and if he had an open spreadsheet & 3 calls
beast (27-Apr) : Thank goodness he's not leaving the Turtle in the Red Tide
Mucky Tundra (27-Apr) : Cowboys 1st round pick Tyler Booker will indeed be bringing his pet turtle to Dallas with him
Mucky Tundra (27-Apr) : that contained all prospects info and contact
Mucky Tundra (27-Apr) : beast, according the Falcons statement Jax came across it on an ipad. If I had to guess, probably an open spread sheet or something
Zero2Cool (27-Apr) : Simmons put up an emoji with cheese.
beast (27-Apr) : Not sure anyone is interested in Isaiah Simmons... Collin Oliver might of taken his potential slot
beast (27-Apr) : I'm going with Jax Ulbrich is not telling the whole truth... he accidentally came across it? Why would a defensive coordinator have a QB #?
Zero2Cool (27-Apr) : He's not that great, but final piece of the script.\
Zero2Cool (27-Apr) : If we add Isaiah Simmons, book your Super Bowl tickets
Mucky Tundra (27-Apr) : Colts 1st round TE Tyler Warren also got prank called, was that Jax Ulbrich as well?
Zero2Cool (27-Apr) : Jax Ulbrich, Jeff Ulbrich’s son, released an apology for his role in the Shedeur Sanders prank call.
Martha Careful (27-Apr) : apparently he did not participate in practice or play on the east west shrine game nor the NFL combine. The kid was a mediocre spoiled brat
Mucky Tundra (27-Apr) : Yeah that one that was a super wounded duck that Sanders supporters are highlighting to prove a point
Zero2Cool (27-Apr) : Shough is the guy who missed guys at combine isn't he?
beast (27-Apr) : It's not official until I'm dead! I have a chance still! (Not really)
Mucky Tundra (27-Apr) : I could feel my body decomposing in real time when I read that
Mucky Tundra (27-Apr) : @MIKEYSAINRISTIL Tyler Shough will officially be the last person drafted to the NFL born in the 1900’s
Mucky Tundra (26-Apr) : saw the tweet, he meant the city
Mucky Tundra (26-Apr) : Was that for the team or the city?
Zero2Cool (26-Apr) : Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter · 3m Draft grade is in: Green Bay gets an A. The people, the city, the venue were all superb. NFL Draft’s next
Zero2Cool (26-Apr) : Matt LaFleur says Jaire Alexander is participating in #Packers offseason program, which has been conducted virtually during this first week
Zero2Cool (26-Apr) : ✅ ...
buckeyepackfan (26-Apr) : Check
Zero2Cool (26-Apr) : Matthew Golden cahanged 81 to 22??
TheKanataThrilla (26-Apr) : Sam Howell to Vikings...guess no Aaron
Martha Careful (26-Apr) : 1 round 7 min, with one extra minute if there is a trade. 2nd round 4 minutes, 3rd -3, 2 thereafter IMO
Martha Careful (26-Apr) : Agree
dfosterf (26-Apr) : Great idea imo
dfosterf (26-Apr) : 1st round to 7 minutes with one extension
dfosterf (26-Apr) : NFL comissioner wants to shorten the 2st
Mucky Tundra (26-Apr) : @jalenreagors They’re discussing if Sheduer can go back to college on NFL Network LMFAOOOOO
beast (26-Apr) : Great point Martha
beast (26-Apr) : Buddy Ryan used to say if a candy bar goes missing, there are two to blame, Rex and Rob 🤪 jk 😁
Martha Careful (26-Apr) : Bum Phillips used to say there are two ways to get better. Get better players or get players to play better. We have a new DL coach
Zero2Cool (26-Apr) : Yes. Look at the losses last year. They can win.
beast (26-Apr) : Can Packers win with their current DL?
bboystyle (26-Apr) : waiting for a pass rusher.
dfosterf (25-Apr) : 5 minutes between picks in the 3rd
dfosterf (25-Apr) : 3rd. Hate this phone
dfosterf (25-Apr) : 4rd
dfosterf (25-Apr) : 5 minutes in the 4
dfosterf (25-Apr) : 7 minutes between picks in the 2nd round
Martha Careful (25-Apr) : Sorry to bitch, but the headline writers in that section absolutely mislead, or don't know how to read. It is maddening
Martha Careful (25-Apr) : No thanks. Not a dependable guy to be in the right place and run the right route. Dumb as a box of rocks.
Zero2Cool (25-Apr) : Losing 2nd round pick for a one year rental, not ideal. Especially a headcase.
TheKanataThrilla (25-Apr) : Pickens for Jaire may be interesting. Definitely not sure we want Pickens long term.
dfosterf (25-Apr) : No.Absolutely not
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