Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
Hmm. Where do I start?

1. "The last time that education was in the hands of pure supply and demand, the rich got richer and the poor were stuck in dead-end jobs." And the poor now are...?

2. The way to get out of a dead-end job is to be more productive. To have skills that others value and are willing to pay for. In an industrial economy, where the skills are those of repetitive motion and the same quality every time, schools can provide those skills. They can get you to memorize the formula and apply it. And they can do it over and over.

But we don't live in that world anymore. We live in a world where productivity varies with the individual's ability to innovate, to create, to think for himself/herself. Where to be productive (and to get something other than a dead end job) you need higher order skills. Skills like daily collaboration and trade, like project management, like synthesizing information AND ways of thinking about information. Skills that modern educational institutions and systems are fucking lousy at providing for all but maybe 3 percent of the population.

3. "Free thinkers and revolution." Free thinkers, yes; revolution, no. Revolution is an industrial world idea. It's as outdated as majoritarianism. Revolution is about forming a movement, about finding an alternate way to fit people into conforming boxes. We don't need revolutionaries, we need innovators and creators and people who think independently.

4. "Making you an accountant." Schools can make you a bookkeeper, but only you can make you an accountant. Schools can teach you how to distinguish between assets and expenses, to do journal entries and balance sheet, to use Excel and Quickbooks. That's bookkeeping.

What they can't do, or at least do without great difficulty and cost, is develop your judgment as an accountant. The ability to know how to project cash flows, to interpret return on investment, to audit and monitor for problems. Only you can develop those skills through practice and experience and being mentored.

3. Doing it for 1670 euros. You're absolutely right that such a piddling sum wouldn't hire a teacher. And doesn't. But the dollars that "government" spend to pay for that teacher don't come out of thin air. They come from taxpayers of various sorts. What makes the government better at spending money on education than those taxpayers choosing freely to spend their money however they wish?

To be sure, if you stopped taxing and let people spend their money on whatever they want, a lot of them would spend it on something other than subsidizing education. I don't deny that.

But what makes you think they'd waste *more* than the current education spenders do? What makes you think the people who spend our taxes are better at spending decisions than the rest of us?

4. "Rich getting richer, etc." The biggest check on the rich keeping control is not trying to tax/steal their money from them. It's having them bear the consequences of their bad choices.

One of the reasons so many of the old manorial estates in Europe are owned by businessmen isn't because the businessmen have been the rich getting richer. It's because the prior owners squandered their wealth in gambling, bad investments, and conspicuous consumption, whereas the businessmen focused on increasing productivity and providing goods and services that others valued enough to pay for.

The rich, they will always be with us. The question is not "how do we get equality". The question is how do we decide what garners greater wealth and power and what does not. Me, I'd give it to them that's providing more value to others and to them who takes risks with their own wealth.

Not to those who can only do by coercing others to pay for their good intentions.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Pack93z
14 years ago
Here is a simplistic view to the opposition of education for all.. if you don't force people to start, many will put off education all together.

Personally, rural schools in my opinion as still very effective overall. It is the urban portions of the country where the education system is failing in its currently makeup and policies in much the way digs described it above. There are kids in those systems that want to learn.. and should be given the right to be taught.. but sooner or later you have to kick those that don't want to learn.

But there within lies the problem, we are a country built on the ideal of being the land of equal opportunity and equality for each citizen.

So how do you make decisions for others all the while pleading for less governmental control? And have it remain fair and equal for those effected?

I have said it before.. I personally leave a ton of income on the table yearly because I refuse to put my kids into the large systems that are failing.. I will remain in the rural life with less income potential and cultural interest that I have, until the kids have graduated from school in a system I trust.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Formo
14 years ago
I like the idea of instead of bashing the guys that bust their balls to get their wealth, we give them a big 'thanks' for doing far more than their part in filling the Governments pockets.

You broke ass bastards (VR, DakotaT, etc.) would do good to take note. 🙂
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Thanks to TheViking88 for the sig!!
Rockmolder
14 years ago

3. Doing it for 1670 euros. You're absolutely right that such a piddling sum wouldn't hire a teacher. And doesn't. But the dollars that "government" spend to pay for that teacher don't come out of thin air. They come from taxpayers of various sorts. What makes the government better at spending money on education than those taxpayers choosing freely to spend their money however they wish?

To be sure, if you stopped taxing and let people spend their money on whatever they want, a lot of them would spend it on something other than subsidizing education. I don't deny that.

But what makes you think they'd waste *more* than the current education spenders do? What makes you think the people who spend our taxes are better at spending decisions than the rest of us?

"Wade" wrote:



But this is the whole point, isn't it?

If we wouldn't pay taxes and let people spend them on whatever they want, I wouldn't have made it through high school. Couldn't possibly afford it. If there was no subsidy, the costs would be through the roof. And to be honest, I can't even manage to scrape those 1.670,- together without the government giving me another subsidy in study financing.

So, really, the chances of succeeding would be horribly small for anyone living below upper class standards.

Having skills is great, but at this point in time, you'll get into a small amount of decent jobs without any sort of education. IT might be the big exception, since it's still rather new. For instance, two of the brightest people I know. Both started university a time or 3, but dropped out every single time. Just weren't putting the effort it. They can be as smart as they want and apply for as many jobs as they want, but neither have been able to go anywhere.

Well, that's a lie, one's leading a team of 16-20 year olds in a supermarket. The other one's also leading the 28 year old who leads thos kids.

Seriously, you're absolutely nowhere without a college diploma these days.

And that's not saying that you can't be succesful. There's always a few succes stories. I reckon that also depends on your definition of success. I know, though, that the less fortunate people, living on welfare checks, far outweigh the Donald Trumps.
vegOmatic
14 years ago


Maybe they could cut spending instead of pandering to the special interests. It's unbelievable how government workers are expected to be able to retire with a pension and health care benefits under the age of 55.

"DakotaT" wrote:



I don't follow your logic. If the government worker signed a contract to accept a position with a pension then the government is bound by that contract. That worker is entitled to his pension. Same goes for the health care. Government workers typically accept less money for the same level of professional position as a private sector worker. In exchange they typically receive better benifits.

"vegOmatic" wrote:



Government workers are not entitled to pensions. They can be held be responsible for their own retirement, the same as the rest of us. Contracts aren't forever, they can be renegotiated.
blank
14 years ago

You capitalist bastard, Wade! Are you telling us market demand would create this new educational system??? Haha

Like I said, once most of my friends witnessed and experienced what we call "education", they were out within a short time. It is not about educating children as much as it is about money and power.

"Wade" wrote:



Market demand would do what it has always done, create a profit for those who are able to fill and control the niche.

"MassPackersFan" wrote:



And this is bad?

"digsthepack" wrote:



For whom? :lol: It's not necessarily bad, but it also doesn't guarantee a better education system. There are clearly multiple ways to control a market, and providing the best service is only one of them. Let's not confuse the theory of capitalism with the reality.

If education is privatized, we will lose our voice as citizens of this nation. Our only voice will be that of a consumer. I'm just voicing some concern over that fact.
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digsthepack
14 years ago
Trade schools...the terribly overlooked avenue to success. But then again, many children are led to believe working with one;'s hands is undignified. And yet, many tradesmen (and women) out-earn their friends who went to earn bachelor's degrees and beyond, and who come out of school with much more debt. Not every kid is able/capable/willing to pursue the 4 year degree....why fool ourselves and make it seem like a birthright.
State Motto: "Wisconsin, our serial murderers eat their kill!"
digsthepack
14 years ago
The consumer can walk, that is their "voice". Something not afforded in state schools where children are essentially a commodity, at best, prisoners, at worst.
State Motto: "Wisconsin, our serial murderers eat their kill!"
4PackGirl
14 years ago
ok - since i'm currently 'living with' our educational system via my 2nd grade twins, let me tell you what it's like.

2 days ago, cory's teacher sent joey (a 2nd grader) out in the hallway to give zack (another 2nd grader) his spelling test.

when zack's mom called to speak with the prin/superintendent, he said 'oh i wasn't aware anything like that was going on'.
(many parents have complained about this teacher not only this year but in previous years as well)

zack's mom asked him what he would do about the problem & he stated 'well she does have tenure'. with that, zack's mom stated if that was his answer, she should perhaps go to the school board to get on the docket for their next meeting.
his response - 'i don't appreciate being threatened'. WTF????

this is a tiny example of what goes on in public schools.
the school district they're in is considered one of the best in the area.
DakotaT
  • DakotaT
  • Select Member Topic Starter
14 years ago


You broke ass bastards (VR, DakotaT, etc.) would do good to take note. =)

"Formo" wrote:



You think I'm a broke welfare case?

Sorry Formo - I don't view Fox news as gospel and certainly am not going to base political veiws by being spoon fed my opinion by the wealthy backers of the GOP. People like that are called pawns, don't let the reflection hit you in the ass.

My opinions in politics are based more in what's right and wrong from an ethical standpoint of being a decent than in lining my pockets. How anybody can blindly follow the GOP, DEMS, or TEA BAGGERS and just swallow rhetoric is astonishing. There are issues I am very conservative on and there are other issues I am liberal with. Rush, Jeff Beck and O'reilly will never make up mind for me on anything - but there are a lot of things I agree with them on.
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