1. Obama's policies and beliefs are idiotic, and idiotic systematically. That means he's either an idiot or a cynical manipulator of others. I'd go with the latter.

2. I had to Google Michelle Bachmann, since I pay little more attention to individual congresscritters than I do to other celebrities today. But having seen her pics now, I pretty much agree with Dakota. Where I disagree is with his naivete, shared by just about everyone here, that it is possible for a modern politico to have anything other than good looks going for them.

I don't know Bachmann's politics and I don't care. I'd be extraordinarily surprised if she had anything of value to say to me. But I'd probably look at her if she dressed in basic black.

The PC part of me realizes you shouldn't think of women as nothing more than sex objects. But the reality is if the woman is a professional olitico, it's a damn good bet she's got nothing else I'd be interested in.

Or, IMO, that anyone else should be.

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Sigh. Europeans.

School for all is such a nice sounding thing, isn't it. You do know, right, that mass education of the USA sort was designed to keep the masses in check, nice conforming little automatons who would be happy dividing their life into 50 minute bits and punching time clocks like well-behaved, efficient servants. People who can be manipulated with great ease by politicos and advertisers.

You are absolutely right that education is costly. If people were really interested in providing true education for all, the kind helps people take advantage of the real opportunities of the 21st century, it would probably cost 10 times that $15000 per student that digsthepack cites. (Actually, the real cost of education per student in the USA is far higher that 15k -- you have to add the budgets of all those schools PLUS the budgets of all those state depts of education PLUS the budgets of the fed DofE.) If you could figure out how to do it at all.

But to trust with the task the people who know nothing more than treating children like machines and making them into nice conforming little citizens content with consuming and persuadable by jingles and soundbites? People who use every opportunity to get their own kids out of the system and into private, expensive alternatives? That strikes me as ludicrous and insane.

IMO, the best approach to "public education" would be to:
1. Make "compulsory education" unconstitutional.
2. De-fund all "Departments of education".
3. Eliminate all property tax subsidies of educational institutions.
4. Eliminate all subsidies to higher education, including federal "financial aid."
5. And watch the flowering of educational alternatives that would erupt everywhere with the freed up funds.

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You capitalist bastard, Wade! Are you telling us market demand would create this new educational system??? Haha

Like I said, once most of my friends witnessed and experienced what we call "education", they were out within a short time. It is not about educating children as much as it is about money and power.

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Market demand would do what it has always done, create a profit for those who are able to fill and control the niche.

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And this is bad?

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I don't get half your post, but I'm going to give it a shot, anyway. Must be my lowly European education.

Anyway, isn't that what schools are for? Making those people into the drones you describe? What the hell are we anyway in the bigger scheme of things? Individuality is overrated. Most people care very little for the individual behind their accountant, lawyer, jurist, mechanic, painter etc. I don't know what you have in mind here. Some kind of school that sends out free thinkers into the open world who start revolutions and create a huge uprising or something?

Anyway, I know that schools are horribly expensive. Hence the subsidizing part. Want to know how much I pay per year for higher education? 1.670,-. Of course, that's without books and all, but still. I think that, with all the students together, we don't even cover the cost of one teacher. With study financing and a part time job, I can get through school. Of course, all they'll make of me is an accountant with a green belt wrapped around my mind.

I'd love to see what the alternatives are in your scenario, though. I mean, even tax-free Kuwait has a socialized educational system, aimed at free education for everyone. The last time that education was in the hands of pure supply and demand, the rich got richer and the poor were stuck in dead-end jobs.

The underlying message, though, is again one of a romanticized fight against the big fascist government. Maybe the government stole your high school sweetheart or something.

Sigh.

Another finger pointing thread blaming one side of the political aisle verses the other.

Simple point of it all is this, I was on my last thread of patience with the government in the last Bush term and held out hope that we hit bottom and maybe change would right the ship. And I have this feeling of being letdown to this point of the latest tenure.

Until someone walks into Washington with the citizen's interests first, abolishes the lobbyist system that corrupts any productive government and starts to act fiscally responsible overall.. I hold out little hope for the establishment of the President, House and Congress as a whole.

Sure that is a simplistic look at the problems overall.. but until special interest groups are walked out of the process.. it is doomed for the overall good of the masses.

The only difference in the end between the two parties is where they spend our dollars.. but neither party looks at it with a responsible eye.

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Mass...if by "filling and controlling a niche" you mean providing a decent education that satisfies both the parent and the student, then hell yes!

Beautiful thing about private industry, if you don't deliver the goods, you go away, and there are other options available to the consumer. The public/government school system does not afford that, and I find it amazing you can defend the status quo on our current education model given its miserable performance, especially in urban areas, over the decades.

Funny, the Dems/Left...and let me remind you, I respect nor endorse neither party....always hides behind children to get their policies enacted...you know, "for the children". And yet, the schools which are run by their biggest contributor in the teachers union(s) are failing across the board. If these people are all about the children, they would betray the money and influence of the teachers unions and reform education....but they steadfastluy refuse to at every turn.

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The simple point is this.. there should be a safety net in place for those in this country that "truly" need it in the form of welfare. This country has too large of a cash flow overall to all any citizen truly in need to be left at the wayside.

Instead the issue is cleaning up whom is receiving benefits and getting people off them in a timely manner if possible. I would wager the a good deal of those drawing benefits could and should be working within society and not dragging the system down overall.

It is nothing to see people drawing benefits, yet being able to hunt, fish, play and drink just as capably as any other member of the working society of this country. Yet when it is time to punch the clock they suddenly have some medical or physical issue that prevents them from you know working.

It isn't the ideal of protecting the down that is incorrect, it is the inability to properly kick those that are bilking the system off them.

It is nothing different then in any other sector of government and society.. it is simply greed driven with as little effort as possible.

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That is my point exactly, 93. My former Section 8 neighbor (subsidized housing welfare queen for those not in the know) BRAGGED how she worked the system for approx. $36,000 per year, all combined with housing, medical, child benefits, food stamps, and general assistance. That is about $54,000 to you and me before taxes. Help those truly in need, and clear the rolls of the parasites...who would then have a choice to "do the jobs Americans won't do" or find their lives turned upside down.

Rock...individuality is overrated? Well, that is what distinguishes us from most Europeans...and I am mighty proud of that fact. Once we treat and reward all the same for different levels of performance and skill, industriousness and innovation stagnate and die. I mean, the large welfare state (relative to that ofthe U.S....for now at least) of many European countries have created sloth and dependence, and are proving increasingly unsustainable. I don't honestly know how you can defend that mindset?

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