earthquake
14 years ago
Star deserves to be in the conversation for best QB of all time, not only comparing to Favre, but comparing to guys like Montana, and Brady.

He was 9-1 in the playoffs, winning 5 championships/superbowls.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2103_The_definitive_list:_Top_10_NFL_quarterbacks.html 

Was Star as athletic as Favre? Did he have the same arm strength? It doesn't really matter, Star is THE BEST playoff quarterback ever to play the game, and has won more championships than any other QB.
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
I like this comment I found at National Football Post.

I am not sure if there really is a good way on making records comparable. There is always the per game numbers. ie. 2000 yards in a 14 game season is 143 yards a game, in an 18 game season that is 111.1 But that doesn't really work for so many stats as the game changes so much. Baseball for example doesn't really change. The rules stay the same. Last years NL and AL batting leaders hit .336 and .359. In 1890, they hit .336 and .363. No real change in 120 years. The Giants played 157 games in 1898, they play 165 now.

The NFL is different. pre-1978 only Namath passed for 4000 yards in a season. Post-1978, Jeff George in 1997 is the only QB to lead the league in passing (in a non-strike year) with under 4000 yards. And rule changes/scheme changes (west coast offense) have had passing numbers shoot up. Young, Montana, and Aikman are the only QB's in the top 30 in comp% that retired more than two years ago. Young and Montana are the only ones in the top 16 of QB ratings. Nothing against Carson Palmer, but him having a better QB rating than Staubach or Marino doesn't mean he is a better QB.

Or look at Jim Brown. Greatest NFL player ever IMO. His 1527 yard 17 TD season is impressive, but even more-so when you take a look at his peers. The next closest back had 791 yards. He had a pro-bowl teammate with 651 yards and 2 TD's.

That is I think where you can find some measure of greatness.. Comparison to peers. Brown gained 1.93 yards for every yard gained by his closest competitor. That's like a 2700 yard season for Arian Foster this year. (Plus doubling the nearest guy in TD's). And Brown was doing things close to this EVERY SINGLE YEAR. I have often said that Jim Taylor would be on everyone's list as a top 5 back of all time (and arguably the best ever) if Jim Brown had stuck to lacrosse.

That I think is where you see Marino's greatness. The old record for TD's was 36. He broke that twice in 3 years. Not by 1 like Peyton, or Brady. But a full 1/3 more TD's. Put those increases in today's numbers.

50 is the current record... Now a QB would need to get:

66 TD's in year 2, then 42 the next year, then 61 the following year to stomp the records as hard as Marino stomped them. I was a kid those years, but those were just insane years for Marino to those that remember them. He was the only QB ever that I have seen to be what I would consider a lock for the Hall of Fame before his fifth year.

1 QB in the league threw over 28 TD's when Marino threw for 48. 4 did each of the years when Manning and Brady threw one more to set the records. When Marino threw 44, the next closest had 25! And he threw for 400 and 600 yards more than his closest competitors those two seasons as well. Just amazing. By his 4th season he had thrown for 30 TD's 3 times. That was a record (as was his three 4100 yard passing seasons), and you could count on one hand the number of QB's who had done that multiple times in their careers (and on one finger the multiple time 4100 yard passers).

Yes those numbers were in a huge part due to the rule changes, and 16 games of 1978. But the fact that they have stood so long and were so dominant over his peers of his time, makes them most impressive to me.

So I think ranking vs. peers is really the only good way. Saying team x's defense allowed 100% fewer points than the league average for example. And not even this is a perfect situation. I don't know if going up against the D's of the 30's was as hard for Hutson as Rice matching up across from Deion. The game is just so different.


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RedSoxExcel
14 years ago

Star deserves to be in the conversation for best QB of all time, not only comparing to Favre, but comparing to guys like Montana, and Brady.

He was 9-1 in the playoffs, winning 5 championships/superbowls.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2103_The_definitive_list:_Top_10_NFL_quarterbacks.html 

Was Star as athletic as Favre? Did he have the same arm strength? It doesn't really matter, Star is THE BEST playoff quarterback ever to play the game, and has won more championships than any other QB.

"earthquake" wrote:



Terry Bradshaw won four Super Bowls, is that mean you put him that conversation too? Or what about Troy Aikman or Big Ben if he wins another?

I'm not saying Starr sucks, he's a HOF but if the whole thing is based on team wins, then we have to give the same credit to Troy Aikman and Terry Bradshaw. For Bradshaw to win four SBs is nuts even harder than what Starr accomplished. For Aikman to win three SBs with that many teams in the league is nuts too.

BTW - Does anyone know if there is a picture with Starr + Favre + Rodgers? That would be awesome to put up in a den, especially if it was signed by all three.

Did some google searches. This is AWESOME (Favre 95-96-97 MVP, Starr SB I and II MVP):

http://lockersmash.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/starr_favre.jpg 
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RedSoxExcel
14 years ago
I'm a bit confused, NSD, arn't you making my point with that article?
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
Depends. Are you trying to say Favre stood as far above his peers as, say, Marino did? I highly doubt a compelling case can be made for that position, Favre's performance between 1995-1998 notwithstanding.

My point was that Favre's numbers were boosted by the post-1978 rule changes, and I think that post supports my position.

I personally believe that the current rash of amazing quarterback ratings is, if not an anomaly, then a cyclical local maximum, and that it will begin to swing back the other way eventually, at least to some extent. Last year we witnessed a year of extraordinarily low turnovers by quarterbacks, one that I didn't think would be sustainable, and while numbers didn't quite return to normal this year, they certainly returned to earth. Even Peyton Manning threw quite a few picks. I think something similar will happen with passer ratings. Perhaps defenses will adapt and improve; perhaps rule changes will equalize things a bit. It remains to be seen.
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RedSoxExcel
14 years ago
All I'm saying is that you can't compare Rodgers QB rating or yards in 2009 or 2010 to Favre's in 1994 or 1995. They're not comparables because clearly something is off in the last 4 or 5 years in terms of QB ratings and yards. Because to compare them straight up is to say that Schuab, Cassel, Rivers, Flacco, etc. are also in Favre's 1994 or 1995 league. So yes, Rodgers is great and he is on pace to pass Favre as a better QB but to say Rodgers is at this point way better than Favre based on statistics is a big stretch.

If you think he has a stronger arm, is way better mechnically, is much much smarter, etc. and thats why he's way better than Favre, then fair enough, that's all subjective. But the use of statistics given the hike in QB statistics is misleading IMO.

I suspect it will drop down eventually but right now it's off and I take all QB numbers these past few years with a grain of a salt (including Favre's QB rating last year). If you watch Favre in 1995-1997 and Favre 2009, I'd be shocked if anyone said Favre 2009 was better than the old Favre by 10 QB rating points.
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
I know you're fixated on passer rating, but I'm not so much. I look more at things like turnovers and touchdown passes.

In their first three seasons as a starter, both Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers started the same number of games: 47. Rodgers missed a game due to injury, and Favre didn't start the first game of the season.

In the first 47 starts of their careers (plus an extra part of a game for Favre), their turnovers were as follows:

Favre: 51 INT, 33 FUM (13 lost) = 64 TOs (1.4 TO/game)
Rodgers: 31 INT, 23 FUM (8 lost) = 38 TOs (0.8 TO/game)

That is a significant difference, regardless of what era they played in. The simple fact is Rodgers protects the football better than Favre did. And you can't say it's because Favre had to throw it downfield more, because he averaged 6.6 ypa, while Rodgers has averaged 7.9 ypa. So not only has Rodgers on averaged thrown it deeper than Favre did, he also protected the ball far better.

And of course the TD passes are no comparison: 86 for Rodgers to 70 for Favre.

I'd be curious to see how the numbers compare with Favre's peak three years. I know his TD passes would be far higher than Rodgers', but I wonder how the yards per attempt would compare.
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LambeauEast
14 years ago
I am just amazed at how lucky we as fans are. We have a guy like Rodgers to replace Favre. Miami still hasn't found their replacement of Marino, nor have the Broncos for Elway. I guess the closest to this is Montana and Young. And it's not even like there were some scrubs in there for a few years, and we finally lucked out...we were able to send the old man packing because his replacement was right there!
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earthquake
14 years ago

Star deserves to be in the conversation for best QB of all time, not only comparing to Favre, but comparing to guys like Montana, and Brady.

He was 9-1 in the playoffs, winning 5 championships/superbowls.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_2103_The_definitive_list:_Top_10_NFL_quarterbacks.html 

Was Star as athletic as Favre? Did he have the same arm strength? It doesn't really matter, Star is THE BEST playoff quarterback ever to play the game, and has won more championships than any other QB.

"RedSoxExcel" wrote:



Terry Bradshaw won four Super Bowls, is that mean you put him that conversation too? Or what about Troy Aikman or Big Ben if he wins another?

I'm not saying Starr sucks, he's a HOF but if the whole thing is based on team wins, then we have to give the same credit to Troy Aikman and Terry Bradshaw. For Bradshaw to win four SBs is nuts even harder than what Starr accomplished. For Aikman to win three SBs with that many teams in the league is nuts too.

BTW - Does anyone know if there is a picture with Starr + Favre + Rodgers? That would be awesome to put up in a den, especially if it was signed by all three.

Did some google searches. This is AWESOME (Favre 95-96-97 MVP, Starr SB I and II MVP):

http://lockersmash.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/starr_favre.jpg 

"earthquake" wrote:



That's only looking at one angle, Star has a better playoff winning %, better QB rating in playoffs, and more Championships than all of those guys. He is the ultimate playoff QB, this is backed up by facts, not subjective ideas about who did this better or who had a better supporting team or what have you.

Its easy to make the argument that Rapelsburger and Aikman and Bradshaw won because they had superior teams with superior talent, but the same argument can be made for Montana, Young, Favre, Brady, etc.
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
Anyone who argues that Roethlisberger played a significant role in that first Super Bowl needs to be beaten with lead pipe.
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