all_about_da_packers
14 years ago


Attitude is everything, my friend. We are in life exactly where our choices put us. Yes, shit happens. But it doesn't just happen to the broke or poor. It happens to the wealthy too. You think how the wealthy react to that shit is any different than how the broke react to it? I know for damn sure it is.

"Formo" wrote:



I do not intend to deny it's different, but it is easier when you are down when you some security than when you have none. I'm also do not mean to imply that shit unfairly happens to poor, because it does not; everyone has shit happen to them.

But it is easier to deal with things when you have some financial and economic security to you.



The two instances you point out (about your father and your neighborhood friends) kind of baffles me. What is your point to them? That you think they deserve more money or success? If so, based on what? Sounds like any one of them could have started their own business or gotten more schooling to get better jobs (thus equaling more income), and put themselves on the path to success. I'm not dogging that they didn't. I'm just saying.

Pointing out all the instances of poor/broke people doesn't nullify my point that we ALWAYS have a choice.

"Formo" wrote:



My point was not intended to be that I deserve success, because I should have to earn it like everyone else. It was, rather, that sometimes personal impediments can limit the choices you have, which may be coupled with factors such as previous financial burdens (i.e. through loans) that limit choices. I also wanted to point out that sometimes there can be structural impediments (bad teachers who are held unaccountable) that eventually limit opportunities. Looking back, I think I was very disorganized in making that point; my bad for such a very bad job in articulating myself.

I disagree with people admonishing all poor for their plight because I think it is an unfair thing to do. Yes poor people make bad choices, engage in self-destructive behaviour, and squander opportunities that do present themselves and thus deserve blame; in my experience though most poor people are not consistently like that. They never had the range of choices towards upward mobility that those in higher classes than them have.

I'm not saying we should hate wealthy people - frankly most of us aspire to become wealthy through hard work and honest means, hardly deserving ridicule for that - or that we should redistribute wealth or something crazy like that. But I think we need not be so condemning of poor people for their plight, because sometimes structural and personal impediments can limit the choices they have available to move on from poverty.
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dfosterf
14 years ago
I don't know about rich or poor, but I can tell you who the cheapest SOB I know is.

Me!

I just proved it.

Early this AM, I went out on my porch and smoked a cig. About a half hour later, I smoked another one, and at that time, I emptied my ashtray into the trashcan.

...About 45 minutes ago, my phone rings. (Who the HELL is calling me at this hour??!!) My neighbor Jan. My porch is on fire! I go out there, and the inferno is raging!

My other neighbor Bonnie is out there trying to put it out with her coat, to no avail.

Thinking rapidly, I jump back into my kitchen, fill a pot of water, (Interminably slow, under the circumstances) and douse the flames.

The cheapskate part? The thinking rapidly part...

You see, I have 3 fire extinguishers in my garage, equidistant from the fire as my kitchen. As part of my thinking process, I determined that it was too expensive to have to refill my fire extinguisher(s), and acted accordingly.

Now THAT is cheap. :tongue3: ...Back to your regularly scheduled political/philosophical discussion.
14 years ago

You can make excuses for not living up to your potential. Or you can live up to your potential. We have a lot more choice in this life than we realize.

"Formo" wrote:



I don't think it's quite the either/or proposition you are making it out to be.

Yes there is potential for upward mobility, I will not deny that. But that potential is quite limited when you are poor; the resources at your disposal are marginal. For every 1 person who achieves the "American Dream" there are hundreds, if not thousands, for whom that dream never materializes*. There is a stigma with being poor, one that assumes outrageous level of incompetence that somehow confine the poor to their conditions. I will not be so naive to claim that there are poor people who are hampered by their own inability to do much of anything, but I still think many many more have very limited avenues to escape their chronic poverty.

Much like Martin Luther King Jr. (whose writings I am a huge fan of) once said, it's hard to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps when you have no boots. I think that very much applies, and that there are tremendous impediments to attaining boots, so to speak, when you do not have them in the first place.

* The academic Kathleen Stewart, whose views I very much agree with, wrote a (IMO) marvelous piece - Real American Dreams (can be nightmares) - which shows that for many who achieve the American Dream, there are many more who do not.

"all_about_da_packers" wrote:



Sounds like another case for welfare.

No thanks, didn't work the first time.. Not gonna work a second or third time.

If people would stop looking for excuses outside of what is controllable and use that energy on finding a way to succeed at whatever it is they want to succeed in, this world/country would be a better place.

But then again, instead of listening to the pity parties the poor throw themselves all the damn time, I'm using my time and listening to the rich friends I have that actually did something about their poverty.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



Wow. Why such contempt for poor people? Do you have personal reasons to hate them so much, or have you just fed on the pro-corporation capitalist propaganda that ravenously? It's sad that we're living in a society right now that has more compassion for businesses than people. As confidently as you speak, you have no fucking clue what many poor people have been through, or how they've ended up there. Some trite lines about "Our choices control everything" don't mean anything except reflecting the Pavlovian disdain that encourages the abuse of the American people by a few for insane amounts of profit.
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Wade
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14 years ago
(This one is going to be long, I fear, so those of you who dislike long rambles might want to tune out and scroll down.)

I do not have contempt for poor people, but I do have contempt for those who encourage them to think they "have no choice."

Because by historical standards, America's poor have a great deal of choice indeed.

At the same time, however, I do not have contempt for those who ask us to improve the opportunities that those poor have. While economic mobility under the "American" model is great by any historical comparison I can think of, it is still largely "1-generation" mobility. It is "children can have a better life than their parents" mobility. It is not "you can have a better life mobility." The next generation's opportunities are bigger because of our hard work. Ours are often not.

The odds for the latter *are* better under the American model, too, but there is still room for much improvement.

I would rather be poor here than anywhere else, because I know that I've got a better chance of moving up through my own ingenuity and hard work here than anywhere and anywhen else. But I also know that the farther down I start, the less likely it is that *I* am the generation who will reap the real benefits of my ingenuity and hard work.

So why do I have contempt for many of those who would complain to me about the plight of America's poor?

Because, no matter how far down the American hierarchy of wealth one of those American poor might be, by comparison with *billions* of people in the world, they are incredibly rich in their opportunities. I've often heard people arguing about how many millions of poor there are in America, and it appalls me, because for every "poor" person in America there are 100 or 1000 profoundly poorer people elsewhere. People who truly have virtually no opportunity to improve the lot of EITHER their lives or their children's lives. Much less have the opportunity for improving their children's lives or even their own lives that the American poor have.

Economic mobility of the kind virtually every poor person in America has -- the kind of mobility that "children can have it substantially better than we have" -- is a phenomenon only a couple hundred years old.

I don't value people more because they are rich, any more than I value people because they can put lots of letters after their name. I do value people who strive to better themselves and their children. And I'm sad when, as they often do, despite their striving, they fall by the wayside.

But I get pissed off when I hear "they have no opportunity." Because, to me, that is so much bullshit. If there was no opportunity, why the fuck do all those people want to cross our borders? If there was no opportunity, why the fuck are all those "illegal immigrants" willing to move themselves away from their families, risking the border patrol and the scorn of those they are seeking to join, getting exploited up the wazoo by sweatshops and other bastards, doing all the shit jobs?

Because contrary to the fearmongering, most immigrants, illegal or otherwise, are not doing it to get free welfare and medicaid and all the rest. They're doing it because they believe -- because they know -- that this is where the real, where the best, opportunities for upward mobility are.

Still.

I don't believe the poor are always "responsible for their plight." I believe that, for most of them, life has dealt them a shit sandwich through no fault of their own. But I also believe, whatever variety of shit sandwich they have been given, they have more opportunities for a better diet than just about any poor anywhere else. And they certainly have more opportunities for ensuring their children have a better diet.

Too much of what we do in the name of the poor is developing a sense of entitlement.

Take Foster's little "interruption" to our argument. Foster has three fire extinguishers. (But of course Foster is a rich bastard, so what do you expect? 🙂 )

But joking aside, the ability to have three fire extinguishers, at a cost of less than 0.5% of the "poverty line" for a family of four, shows just how wealthy we all are.

Of course, not everyone has three fire extinguishers lying around. Or even one. Should everyone be entitled to have three fire extinguishers to protect themselves against house fires? (Depending on where you live, the law might require you to spend your or your landlord's money on them, but that's another argument for another day.)

Well, IMO, the answer is easily "no." As Foster's "cheapness" illustrates, you don't need a fire extinguisher for all fires that could burn down your house. What you need is a neighbor saying "hey fuckhead, your porch is on fire" and then the smarts to know that water can be found in your kitchen.

Now I understand. The difficulties of the poor can be far larger than Foster's silly cigarette hygiene. But the point is the same. We do the poor no favors by telling them they are entitled to fire extinguishers or anything else.

And that is true whether the "we" who are telling them this are from Pennsylvania Avenue or Wall Street or Madison Avenue. (Because, yes, it isn't just the government do-gooders that deserve our contempt here; its the corps who are telling the poor they need cable TV and LCD screens and Gameboys and Nike shoes and whatnot).

No, what we ought to be doing is teaching the poor how to be Foster-cheap, to find ways of doing without and ways of getting extra income and being a turnip (as in "blood out of") today so their kids eat roast beef tomorrow. Ways to see opportunities in the pile of shit around them.

That's what the poor of Ellis Island, who came from places with even bigger piles of shit around them, did. That's what the poor of Guadalajara and Bangalore, who still have even bigger piles of shit around them, do.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
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zombieslayer
14 years ago


I don't think it's quite the either/or proposition you are making it out to be.

Yes there is potential for upward mobility, I will not deny that. But that potential is quite limited when you are poor; the resources at your disposal are marginal. For every person who achieves the "American Dream" there are others for whom that dream never materializes*. There is a stigma with being poor, one that assumes outrageous level of incompetence that somehow confine the poor to their conditions. I will not be so naive to claim that there are poor people who are hampered by their own inability to do much of anything, but I still think many many more have very limited avenues to escape their chronic poverty.

Much like Martin Luther King Jr. (whose writings I am a huge fan of) once said, it's hard to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps when you have no boots. I think that very much applies, and that there are tremendous impediments to attaining boots, so to speak, when you do not have them in the first place.

* The academic Kathleen Stewart, whose views I very much agree with, wrote a (IMO) marvelous piece - Real American Dreams (can be nightmares) - which shows that for many who achieve the American Dream, there are those who do not.

"all_about_da_packers" wrote:



Let's be real here. Do you know anyone who doesn't have boots? I'm not talking about 3rd world people. I'm talking about American/Canada.

Even the poor in this country aren't that poor when compared to the rest of the world.

I've lived in some pretty bad areas. My fault. I took some financial chances and failed and ended up poor so I don't make up sob stories about how poor I was because it was MY fault.

From that, I saw people in the ghettos who were anti-intellectual, who hated success, who had nice cars, nice bling, nice shows, but will spend NOTHING on education. So they stayed there.

Also in Grad School, I joined Minority Engineering and had friends that were real ghetto people (actually grew up there). They had different attitudes. They wanted to get out. They believed in education. They had ambition. They didn't blame whitey. They didn't make excuses.

Guess what? They got out. I can guarantee that in that group, every single one of them is successful today. I can guarantee it.

Now not saying bad things can't happen. The worst thing that can happen to you is bad health. I'm not counting that. I'm counting the people who are lucky enough to be healthy.

Free will folks. Lose it, or lose it.

EDIT: Wow Wade. It's almost scary how much we agree on certain issues. You wrote it better than I did. +1
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Wade
  • Wade
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14 years ago
Yes, zombie, but you were more concise. 🙂

+1 back at ya.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
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DakotaT
  • DakotaT
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14 years ago
Well Wade, that was one blowhard speech worth reading. It's not that I can't read or won't, it's that I am incredibly lazy sometimes. I liked what you wrote. From the street rat to blue blood princes, one thing is for sure: we are all incredibly lucky to be here. And if you are lucky enough to inherit it, marry it, or earn it the old fashioned way like Anna Nicole; I would hope you have enough character to recognize your good fortune and give back some of your excesses.
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Formo
14 years ago


Wow. Why such contempt for poor people? Do you have personal reasons to hate them so much, or have you just fed on the pro-corporation capitalist propaganda that ravenously? It's sad that we're living in a society right now that has more compassion for businesses than people. As confidently as you speak, you have no fucking clue what many poor people have been through, or how they've ended up there. Some trite lines about "Our choices control everything" don't mean anything except reflecting the Pavlovian disdain that encourages the abuse of the American people by a few for insane amounts of profit.

"MassPackersFan" wrote:



Contempt? What are you reading?

How about this.. You give all your money to the poor as it's *OBVIOUS* they deserve more money than any wealthy person ever could... And I'll go on believing what I believe, mmk?

Don't tell me what I know or don't know, you Marxist Manifesto lovin' hippie.

Explain this to me.. How does a family with NOTHING come to this country from India or Pakistan, work their tails off hard and ends up owning 12 BP stations (gas station chain) in a metro area? When they landed in NYC, they automatically had as much as the poorest, brokest person that already lives here. We live in a country that REFUSES to let a homeless man sleep on the streets and REFUSES to let starving children go hungry. And if I'm not mistaken, there isn't another country that goes as far as ours does in those two instances.

Oops, sorry... Here I go 'spewing Capitalist propaganda' again.

Too bad for you it's the damn truth.
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DakotaT
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14 years ago
You're even sexier when your mad Formo, but you need to top that look off with a dangling nipple ring.

I think we all get a little carried away from time to time. Remember it's almost Christmas and we love each other.
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digsthepack
14 years ago

Well Wade, that was one blowhard speech worth reading. It's not that I can't read or won't, it's that I am incredibly lazy sometimes. I liked what you wrote. From the street rat to blue blood princes, one thing is for sure: we are all incredibly lucky to be here. And if you are lucky enough to inherit it, marry it, or earn it the old fashioned way like Anna Nicole; I would hope you have enough character to recognize your good fortune and give back some of your excesses.

"DakotaT" wrote:



A person should have the CHOICE to give back wealth if they prefer to, and they call it charity. Taxes are confiscatory in nature, and to not pay them leads to jail and monetary loss. See...giving is voluntary and taxes are confiscatory, and as such, there is no choice in taxes.

Funny how people that do not want EXCESSIVE taxation (we all understand the need for them) are labeled as greedy, and the politician and recipients who take and receive it, are not!?!
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