RedSoxExcel
14 years ago
Dexter, you pick out stats like thats the end all. You only look at one side of the coin. I just don't understand how people cannot concede a single point.

If the Packers only got to SuperBowl XXXII in spite of Favre, how about that Seattle/Packers game. With that logic, if Favre hadn't took over (IN snow), the Packers wouldn't have got to that Giants game, so is that mean that mean that the Giants game is a wash? You can't say that the D didn't suck in SuperBowl XXXII because they "saved" Favre in a previous playoff game.

Go back and look at past SuperBowl winners, I bet you anything a lot of the time the QB had bad games and they still won. I remember when Brady threw for 140 yards against the Colts and they still won 20-6 or something. Or all the bad games Big Ben had. When Peyton won his Super Bowl, he beat the Ravens with a game with 15-30, 150 yards, 0 TDs and 2 INTs. Is that mean that Peyton's SB means anything less? NO, of course not, his defense saved him, plain and simple.

Btw, the Vikings game, go look at Culpepper's stats and what the score was 5 minutse into the game. And how is too much to ask that your team stop a 4th and 27, I still don't understand. Regardless of what they did, its a 4th and 27! 4th and 27!

I just don't understand how anyone can argue that those teams were that great and Favre screwed them. Keep overrating Favre's O too, how many HOF'ers did Favre have on that O throughout those years? Plus I also assume you thought that Favre's coaches were awesome too (Sherman). He did more with less and then when the playoffs came and you play better teams, the Packers were exposed a lot of the time.

Is Favre perfect? NO, not even close. He was a big part of the losses in the playoffs, just like any other player on a team. Just like Rodgers was part of the blame for the Cardinals game. You can keep dreaming in this world where he gets a pass but he sucked in the 1st half and missed a wide open Jennings to win the game. He's part of the reason for the loss. BUT WHO CARES, that D was not winning a SB.

Overall, I'm also getting sick of the obsession with just looking at Box Scores and stats to prove arguments in Football. It's not baseball. There is so much more at play.
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RedSoxExcel
14 years ago

You can pull up offensive/defensive/special teams/water boy stats to prove anything you want, but the last 3 years, Brett's last pass of the year was a pick, same is true of the Philly 4th 26 game, might as well have been true in the St. Louis game.

Rodgers is a statistical stud, which is great, but more importantly, in spite of the fumble vs. AZ, has started to demonstrate that he can win a game, and produce under pressure (best 3rd down rating last year)...We can argue about how good/bad a team was, who carried who, etc. and they're all relevant arguments, but one of the key variables is what do you do when your team needs you to produce - 2min drill, end of game, etc. Aaron Rodgers has a lot to prove yet, but seems to demonstrate the capacity to be a winner in this respect.

"musccy" wrote:



I'm not saying that. I'm just saying your can't cherry pick arguments. If the argument is that Rodgers would have won more SBs in those years (based on a 17-15 career record), I just don't understand it.

At the end of the day, the Cardinals game, he sucked in the 1st half and he missed a wide open jennings to win the game. Thats a fact but people cherry pick arguments.

Bottom line is that Rodgers WAS part of the blame for that game, just like any other player but WHO CARES, that D was not winning a SB. They would have got destroyed by the Saints.

Isn't it possible at all that out of those Packers teams that lose in the early 2000's, they just weren't that good to begin with, talent wise and coaching and Favre being great elevated them to winning?

Even look at the Jets season, before the injury, they were 8-3 under MANGENIUS. Favre makes teams better for whatever reason, there's a reason he's only had ONE losing season in 19 years. It is possible that SOME of these teams just didn't cut it but people cherry pick arguments. He's not perfect, that Giants game, that was a horrible throw, he choked, he's part of the blame but he also took the youngest team to a 13-3 record and beat the Seahawks. That team out performed, as shown by a drop to 6-10 in one year.

Who's say that if Favre played the Cardinals, he wouldn't have had first time playoff jitters and sucked in the first half or hit Jennings in OT like he did against the Broncos? But overall, WHO CARES, because that D was not winning a SB.
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TOPackerFan
14 years ago


If the Packers only got to SuperBowl XXXII in spite of Favre, how about that Seattle/Packers game. With that logic, if Favre hadn't took over (IN snow), the Packers wouldn't have got to that Giants game, so is that mean that mean that the Giants game is a wash?

"RedSoxExcel" wrote:



I'm sure Ryan Grant's franchise playoff record rushing performance had nothing to do with the comeback....
Show me a good loser, I'll show you a loser - Vince
musccy
14 years ago
This whole argument involves interpreting a number of shades of grey.

For Rodgers, I agree, he blew it by missing Jennings and fumbled. I wasn't trying to cherry pick at all. But at the same time, he did keep the team in the game in the 2nd half. I'm being a bit of a hypocritical rodgers apologist, but last year we all wanted to see if he was more than just a statistical wonder, that he could actually WIN a game for a team, and he seemed to make great strides in that, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for missing to Jennings because it was only his 2nd year as a starter, and we've seen a maturation towards an elite level quarterback in so many other aspects...plus, even though he did have those two errors in OT, IMO, they pale in comparison to some of the game ending bone-headed picks Brent has thrown.

With Brent, someone else said it best...he was a phenomenal regular season qb, and only 1 losing season does speak volumes. However he was notorious for being a moron when you needed him to prevail. I'm not ready to say rodgers > brett by any means - he has a lot of years and wins to prove that yet, but I certainly think the potential is there for him to prove to be a better QB than Brett and many other elites.
RedSoxExcel
14 years ago


If the Packers only got to SuperBowl XXXII in spite of Favre, how about that Seattle/Packers game. With that logic, if Favre hadn't took over (IN snow), the Packers wouldn't have got to that Giants game, so is that mean that mean that the Giants game is a wash?

"TOPackerFan" wrote:



I'm sure Ryan Grant's franchise playoff record rushing performance had nothing to do with the comeback....

"RedSoxExcel" wrote:



What? You did watch the game and Grants two fumbles in the first 5 minutes to make it 14-0???

Are we seriously not even going to give credit to Favre for that Seahawks game either? It was a young inexperienced team, you don't think Favre's presence, being down 14-0 in the first five minutes had anything to do with that comeback?

If you honestly can watch that game and not say Favre's calm and play was the biggest reason for that win, I don't know what to say.
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doddpower
14 years ago
Always nice when RedSox comes around for his soap box Favre postings!!

=)
RedSoxExcel
14 years ago

This whole argument involves interpreting a number of shades of grey.

For Rodgers, I agree, he blew it by missing Jennings and fumbled. I wasn't trying to cherry pick at all. But at the same time, he did keep the team in the game in the 2nd half. I'm being a bit of a hypocritical rodgers apologist, but last year we all wanted to see if he was more than just a statistical wonder, that he could actually WIN a game for a team, and he seemed to make great strides in that, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for missing to Jennings because it was only his 2nd year as a starter, and we've seen a maturation towards an elite level quarterback in so many other aspects...plus, even though he did have those two errors in OT, IMO, they pale in comparison to some of the game ending bone-headed picks Brent has thrown.

With Brent, someone else said it best...he was a phenomenal regular season qb, and only 1 losing season does speak volumes. However he was notorious for being a moron when you needed him to prevail. I'm not ready to say rodgers > brett by any means - he has a lot of years and wins to prove that yet, but I certainly think the potential is there for him to prove to be a better QB than Brett and many other elites.

"musccy" wrote:



Thank you, I agree. Rodgers has the potential to be great but its still very early. With Favre, all I'm saying is that yes, he choked but its a team game.

I just don't get the double standard. If the 2000 Packers lost in the playoffs, its Favre's fault, if the 2000 Packers won a playoff game, it was with help (e.g., Ryan Grant). If Rodgers goes 6-10, "hey, its a team game!", if Rodgers sucks in 1/2 of a playoff game and chokes in OT, "hey, he got the team that far".

I believe overall, its a team game, you win and lose as a team - Colts/Ravens, Peyton won with a game with 150 yards, 0 Tds, 2 INTs and won the Super Bowl. I think the QB is more important than other positions and I think Rodgers inexperience (NOT his talent) led to the 6-10 season and I think Favre would have done better. And that is where the Rodgers apologies kill me, how can you honestly say that a 17 year vet coming off a 13-3 season with chemistry on that offense wouldn't have done better than 6-10 with a rookie QB. NO one is saying Rodgers sucked, its just about experience. But people cherry pick arguments and for some reason it would kill them to concede anything.

I also think zero percent chance Favre makes that comeback in AZ because he has trouble playing from behind but maybe they never get in that position because Favre wouldn't have had first time playoff jitters. It's all give and take IMO.
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RedSoxExcel
14 years ago

Always nice when RedSox comes around for his soap box Favre postings!!

=)

"doddpower" wrote:



Haha, what can I say, I enjoy it. Its always fun to be Scott Pilgram v. The Forum, haha. The off-season is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO boring, I hate preseason, I hate training camp (like Favre), I hate it all. This is by far to me the most entertaining thread.

All these preseason stuff means nothing to me, so why not have some fun in here.

As far as I know, its all in good fun with Dexter and NSD? If you can't debate sports arguments, whats the point right?
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DakotaT
14 years ago
All I know about the Favre era in Green Bay is that with the players we had along with the talent at quarterback, there should be hardware in the trophy case. I'm hoping that with the new leadership behind our current talented quarterback, some of those problems will be erradicated.

I think the 49ers and Cowboys have quietly stocked their teams as well, so it should be fun going forward.
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Zero2Cool
14 years ago
/me kicks self in nuts and tosses hands up in air
UserPostedImage
Fan Shout
Zero2Cool (14-Feb) : Packers are hiring Luke Getsy as senior offensive assistant.
Martha Careful (12-Feb) : I would love to have them both, esp. Crosby, but either might be too expensive.
Zero2Cool (12-Feb) : Keisean Nixon is trying to get Maxx Crosby and Davante Adams lol
Mucky Tundra (11-Feb) : Yeah where did it go?
packerfanoutwest (11-Feb) : or did you resctrict access to that topic?
packerfanoutwest (11-Feb) : why did you remove the Playoff topic?
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Tua’s old DC won a Super Bowl Year 1 with Tua’s former backup
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : *winning MVP
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Funny observation I've heard: Carson Wentz was on the sideline for both Eagles Super Bowl wins w/guys supposed to be his back up winning
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : NFL thought it would get more attention week preceding Super Bowl.
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Yes, the Pro Bowl. It was played Sunday before Super Bowl from 2010-2022
packerfanoutwest (10-Feb) : pro bowl
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : From 2010 to 2022, it was played on the Sunday before the Super Bowl
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : They moved it to the BYE week before Super Bowl several years ago.
packerfanoutwest (10-Feb) : it was always after the SB.....
beast (10-Feb) : Though I stop following pro bowl years ago
beast (10-Feb) : I thought the pro game was before the Super Bowl?
packerfanoutwest (10-Feb) : ok now for the Pro Bowl Game in Hawaii
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : If I was Philly I would try to end it instead of punting it
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : VICTORY! We have (moral) victory!
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : Hey they mentioned that we 3-peted
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : seems to me the 49ers should have traded Aiyuk when they had the chance
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : if the Eagles get it down to the 1, do they Tush Push or give it to Barkley?
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : 49ers have a money problem if they want to sign their QB
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Wait for real? Didn't he just get an extension two years ago?
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : 49ers gonna trade Deebo. Interesting
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : Replays always never seem to show the holdings
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : Great throw by Hurts
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Where Carter falls prey to bad off the field influences (to be clear, not saying he'd clip someone though)
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Had Carter not gone to Philly were they already had a lot of old college friends, he ends up in a similar spot to Aaron Hernandez
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : I think some of his coaches told scouts to stay away
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : the street racing incident+conditioning and motivation problems
beast (10-Feb) : Then Carter was street racing, where the other car crashed and people died... and other teams were scared to pick Carter for some reason
beast (10-Feb) : I think the Saints traded up, giving their next year 1st to the Eagles, and then they sucked and Eagles got the 10th overall pick
packerfanoutwest (10-Feb) : wtf Barkley?
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : Getting Carter and Nolan Smith in the first round in 2023 was pretty darn good
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : for some reason i'm thinking of a draft where the Eagles where in the mid 20s and a top player fell all the way to them
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : I think so. I would need to look it up. Think it may have been Carolina's pick.
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : i'm not sure who i'm thinking of now
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : oh fuck me i messed that up
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Jordan Davis was 13th overall
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Carter was 9th overall
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Eagles had 15th and 10th selections, moved to 13 and 9 to get Davis and Carter back to back
Zero2Cool (10-Feb) : Eagles traded up for Carter, didn't they?
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Obviously he was a huge risk but getting a top 5 talent on the dline in the mid 20s is fortuitous
Mucky Tundra (10-Feb) : Jalen Carter falling into their lap certainly helps
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : And we could only wish to have this type of D
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : It's not like Philly has had low draft picks, but has managed to get themselves a top notch pass rush. We spend so much draft capital of D
packerfanoutwest (10-Feb) : another crap halftime show
TheKanataThrilla (10-Feb) : I think it is over, but then I think of Atlanta and want Philly to go in with the same intensity in the second half
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