This came up in the StarSpangled Banner thread, but I'm starting a new topic, because I think it might prove fruitful.

What does "respect the position, even if you can't respect the person" mean, and is it really a good rule for conduct?

Does Barack Obama or George W. Bush really deserve to get more respect than the ordinary person because he occupies a particular position?

I'm not sure. To me, respect is something given by and to individuals.

Do I owe Obama basic courtesy? Yes. But do I owe him that courtesy because he's president, or because he's a human being? I'd say the latter.

Do my students owe me courtesy because I'm a "teacher," or because I'm a human being? I'd say the latter.

But respect is more than just courtesy. Respect moves us past courtesy into the realm of "being worth listening to," the realm of deference, the realm of "worth associating with."

My job might be easier if I was entitled to respect from my students because of my position, if I didn't have to earn it and maintain it. But I'm not entitled to have an easy job. I'm not entitled to respect just because someone is willing to pay me to stand up in front of 18- to 20-year olds.

And, frankly, I think the average teacher is a helluva lot more important in the grand scheme of things than the president of the united states. (capitalization intentionally omitted)

My experience has been that most students wait until I've demonstrated myself unworthy. That they give me the benefit of the doubt on the first day of class, and well past the time I first suggest to them that I might be a dimwit or a bad teacher or a bad thinker.

Now sometimes they forget that even dimwits and incompetents deserve basic courtesy. But while I might disagree with their beliefs about my lack of ability or virtue (just as many might disagree with me in my beliefs about president Obama's lack of ability or virtue), I am not entitled to more respect than a non-teacher just because I happen to be a teacher.

And, IMO, president Obama is no more worthy of respect simply because he is president.

He's entitled to courtesy. Just like everyone is.
He's entitled to expect me to obey the law or be willing to suffer the consequences of my disobedience. Just like everyone is.
Nothing more.

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I respect the position. This has been done by me in other circumstances. I have had bosses that were complete jerks. I held my tongue because of the position they held, not out of "courtesy". Had they not been my boss, many times i would have spoke my mind. That doesn't even mean that what i would have said would have been "disrespectful". I just might have been that i didn't agree with what they said, and had they not been in the position they were holding, i would have said what i felt was right.
You can disagree and still be respectful.
Holding back what you feel can be out of respect, not necessarily out of courtesy.

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This topic brings mixed opinions from me..

I was raised in a manner in which you respect your elders and those in position of authority.. my Army trained father has no tolerance for anything other.

So it is ingrained into how I act within this world and society.

Now.. I may show them proper respect in direct interaction.. that doesn't mean that I respect them as a person or their effectiveness in whatever position.

Now if they are a outright disgrace to their position and abusing their position openly.. you bet your ass they aren't getting an ounce of my respect in either fashion..

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Wade, your post was excellent. I keep trying to think of someone new to say, but you really nailed it. Including the concept of courtesy in the discussion is really enlightening as well. In my opinion, positions call for courtesy. People earn respect. Respecting a position makes zero sense to me, and I wouldn't know how to practice it in a real life situation when I didn't respect the person holding that position.

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wow - apparently i'm old school. i was absolutely taught to respect my elders, teachers, police, servicemen & women, & just about anyone in an authoritative position. it has served me well in my life. but in all honesty, i also respect the checkout person at the grocery store, my mail lady, the gas station ladies, & pretty much everyone i come in contact with.

i guess i come from a place of: you have my respect to start with but you can lose it. maybe that's why every tom, dick & harry that i see will say 'hi' to me & have long conversations with me when i have no clue who they are. but i've always thought that was kinda cool.

I think that fell under the definition of "courtesy" for me, 4PG. I try to treat everyone with courtesy. For me, one major difference between courtesy and respect is that when I respect someone I value their thoughts and opinions enough to at least do some thinking and reconsider my own, if they aren't in alignment. I won't do that simply because someone holds a position, and I absolutely won't do it for everyone.

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Yeah, this is pretty spot on. If I could never respect a boss or anyone in any sort of leadership role, how can I respect their position? I could respect the tasks and / or the work that the position entails.. but I've found it hard to be an effective 'follower' to a person in a leadership role whom I just don't respect, for whatever reason.

I think the wording you used is good. Respect is something you have or give to a PERSON.. Courtesy (in this context) is something you have or give to a POSITION.

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Sorry Wade to answer your question with a question, but I wanted to give specific examples.

Remember when the Dixie Chicks said what they said about former Pres GW Bush? Is that disrespectful? Please put your Democrats vs Republicans bias aside.

Was it disrespectful to go into Bill Clinton's sex life, even though JFK, who is regarded as a great President, had a heck of a lot more affairs and FDR died in another woman's arms?

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It *is* cool.

I was brought up the same way. It's why I tried to make the distinction between respect and courtesy. And why I tried to suggest that you owe everyone the same just by virtue of their being human beings.

I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt initially. But my respect can be lost. And in fact I probably withdraw it quicker from those I see as having certain moral obligations by virtue of their position: I think one of the reasons politicians, including presidents, tend to get less respect from me is that they are in a position where they have a duty to behave in ways worthy of respect.

Same for people acting as voters. Same for those professing to be craftsmen.

But I still try to be courteous to them as individuals. Even though I don't think they deserve my respect, they still deserve my courtesy.

Here's another example. I have had many colleagues who bemoan the lack of respect students have these days. Yet these same people go through their workday blissfully unaware of the people who keep the place running -- the custodians, secretaries, snowplow people, maintenance people. The extent of their "respect" is chipping in a few bucks for the secretary's Christmas present.

Last winter, we were the only college/university in this half of Iowa not to close because of one of the mega-storms (the same storm that I understand led the U of W in Madison to close for the first time in its history). My VP wrote an email to all of us the night before announcing that we were indeed going to be open, noting that "faculty should use their own judgment as whether to come". (I, judging that driving was loony in such conditions, stayed home.) But the whole decision seemed unaware that staying open meant that said custodial and grounds staff had to come in between 3 and 4 a.m. in blizzard conditions to enable the respect-deserving faculty and students to have their classes. I have friends on staff -- they told me it took them an hour to get across town to work, something that normally takes only 5 minutes, 10 if you hit all the red lights.

That to me is a flaw in respecting the position, not the person.

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Maybe i consider respect and courtesy as very close in definition.

The Dixie Chicks situation.......they were "working". Doing a concert that people payed to see/hear. They didn't pay to hear their opinions on politics. If they had been somewhere else, and said what they said, i wouldn't have a problem with it. Even if i disagree with them.

And i know Kennedy was a "man whore". For that, he lost alot of my respect. Today's world, almost everything a person does is open to scrutiny. Computers, TV, all added to that.
Kennedy gets alot of "love" because he was assassinated. He died doing his "job". I think that is why so many give him a pass on what he did outside of the presidency.
JMO of course.

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