TheEngineer
14 years ago
It's a shame that the penalty seems quite harsh but, so long as he is guilty, then he's fully deserving of whatever he gets, be it a 1 year or lifetime ban from the NFL and/or several years in prison.

I'll miss his one handed interceptions, but, GTFO.
blank
porky88
14 years ago

You guys are not making me feel any better about this by conjuring up the ghost of Justin Harrell. It stinks to lose Jolly, but there are other guys besides Harrell who can back up our starting three. Anything we get from Harrell will be a bonus at this point.

"Greg C." wrote:



I agree that Harrell needs to get on the field. He's not a bust the same way Ahmad Carroll was. Carroll got on the field and couldn't deliver, but Harrell can't get on the field. He's still very much a bust right now, but we don't know what he can offer. If he gets on the field, perhaps he can help boost the defensive line because Ryan Pickett and/or B.J. Raji is not going to make up for the amount of snaps Jolly played.

Between Harrell, Jarius Wynn and Mike Neal, someone is going to have to step up their game.
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago

I don't see why this decision is being embraced.

Whenever I see Jolly play, he makes a key deflection. He has a nose for that, you can't teach that, and I see nobody else on our defensive line that does that.

Losing Jolly means we lost much needed depth. Gloat on Neal and Wilson all you want, but we don't know what they offer.

"dfosterf" wrote:



I can only speak for me, but I also happen to know that many of our fellow members on this site feel pretty much the same as I do.

My fandom does not include rooting for players that evidence serious character flaws. From what I have read, Mr. Jolly was rather heavily involved with the whole sizzurp/purple drank culture...
Some might say his whole deal was an accepted way to roll from whence he came in Texas.
You do the crime, you do the time- period. I don't care if it's Jolly, Aaron- whoEVER. If I want to root for thugs and assholes, I'll become a Vikings fan.

"blueleopard" wrote:



I find myself of two minds. And when I find myself of two minds, I find I must take great care as to which mind I listen to.

One mind says I have no problem with the suspension. One mind says I have a profound problem.

One mind says Jolly is a moron and good riddance. The other says innocent until proven guilty.

One mind says that an employer should be able to associate (or refuse to associate) with whoever it wishes. The other says that the employer should stick to "performance-based" criteria and what the employee does on the job.

I admit it, I have trouble with drug testing in general. I've never worked for an employer who tests its employees for drugs and hope that I never do. I think testing should be the exception rather than the rule, and used only when there is a clear connection between the drug being tested for and a distortion of performance: e.g., the air traffic controller who needs all faculties, the athlete who takes steroids to enhance performance. Places where the consequences of drug use (avoidable plane crashes, the "integrity of the game") are real and substantial.

But too much drug testing, it seems to me, goes well beyond this, to busybodiness and moralism about what the employee should do in their non-work time. When it comes to "off work," my feeling is that the better employer is the one that follows "innocent until proven guilty in court".

Come back to Mr. Jolly. There are two possible reasons for his suspension here -- one is possible criminal involvement in his non-work activity; the other is multiple failures of drug tests of one kind or another.

Case one: criminal activity.

My understanding is that, at least officially, this was *not* the grounds for his suspension. (I say "officially" because this is where the "two minds" problem can easily creap in: because of our unconscious willingness to convict before the court does, we often try to find other reasons (see case 2) to justify what we want to do because we think the person a thug/criminal. I do, I know, and I'm betting the PR-driven Goodell does, too.)

IMO, a suspension based in any way on the former ought to wait until conviction unless it is a case of true thuggishness. A good rule of thumb for me would be "is the action in question a tort as well as a cime": the employee who beats his wife is not just committing a crime (for which the employer should wait until the court has determined), but also the tort of assault (for which the employer need not wait, since tort liability is not based on either innocence or guilt).

In Jolly's case, ISTM, there is no obvious tort involved. Drinking the wrong substance may be stupidity personified, but nothing I have heard has shown someone other than Jolly being harmed as a result. You can't have a self-inflicted tort. So the only question is whether he committed a "crime", and therefore Goodell, et al, should wait however long it takes for conviction.

Case 2: failing drug tests.
IMO, the timing of the tests and the substances found is key to me here. Especially the substances. Steroids are the easy case: if the athlete is found to having used steroids a la McGwire, I'd throw him out. Probably forever, but at least for a year: he's messed with the integrity of the results of the game in a real way.

If he's found to have been under the influence of marijuana on game day, AND I believe it affected how he did his job, then I'd throw him out for that, too.

But I don't believe an employer should be testing for marijuana in the "offseason". If the employer can't assess the player's "committment" to team excellence without a drug test, the employer isn't doing its job. Because not everyone who does marijuana is a Cheech and Chong stoner.

If the employee thinks his employee is lazy or not working hard enough, the employer shouldn't need a drug test to fire the employee's ass if the employer is so inclined.

Yes, marijuana use is a crime (most places). But the imposition of sanctions for "crime" is *not* the job of private citizens. Perhaps it should be -- many anarchists would say so, but far as I know I'm the only one on this board who thinks anarchism is a good idea. But it isn't. The law may be an ass, but when it comes to crime, we've collectively committed to letting the state decide when criminal sanctions are given.

So where does this all leave me in my two minds?

1. If Goodell wants to punish Jolly for his purple-dranking, he should have held off for now.
2. If Goodell is punishing Jolly for failed drug tests, it depends. If the failed tests were "in season", or if they were "performance altering", I have no problem with throwing the book.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
dfosterf
14 years ago
It is my understanding that this suspension is due to failed drug tests. We do not know the specifics due to confidentiality, etc. --- but we do know the "generalized" policy that calls for progressively stricter/harsher punishment for those not in compliance.

IF he was suspended under the auspices of the substance abuse provisions, contrasted with the personal conduct policies, I find his actions especially egregious.

It means he has either completely lost control, or is simply dumber than dirt itself, or a combination of the two.

Think about it. The man is facing up to 20+ years for his felony charge for the "night in question"- Drugs...guns in car (OK, it's Texas, but child, please)
The prosecutors in his case want to present evidence that Jolly was actively involved in drug dealing. It is my understanding that this evidence will only see the light of day in the courtroom during the sentencing phase if convicted.

This does not sound like a guy that just likes to roll a few and has a little bad luck with respect to getting caught by the law and/or the league.

Our morals have always seemed to slip...whatever...My personal "what is acceptable" remain pretty much unchanged through my lifetime as it relates to illegal drug use. I understand those that feel quite differently about it, but I'm not changing my perspective just because everyone else does.
4PackGirl
14 years ago
he deserves it. in life, when you mess up, you get in trouble & should have to suffer the consequences no matter who you are or what you do. it's pretty damn simple to me!
Lynn_Dickey
14 years ago
Odds are Jolly has played his game as a packer, and Harrell won't make it this season. Ted Thompson has drafted accordingly.
blank
14 years ago
No one knows the exact detail of Jolly's offense, but I bet it was a jerk-off doing on his part - a one year suspension is mighty.

This also answers the why question with regards to our 2nd round pick - I don't think Teddy knew outright that this was going to happen (otherwise would he have bothered with signing him?), but the incline must have been pretty strong.

In any case, I think our front free will cope if we stay injury free. This also means, that Busari Raji has to push on in his second year and become one of our defensive staples.
UserPostedImage 
Zero2Cool is my captain.
warhawk
14 years ago
He's suspended without pay but do they have to get rid of him to open up a roster spot?
The guy is gone for the year and it is what it is but what I am wondering is can we replace him during the suspension or do they have to cut him to get the roster spot?
"The train is leaving the station."
Pack93z
14 years ago

He's suspended without pay but do they have to get rid of him to open up a roster spot?
The guy is gone for the year and it is what it is but what I am wondering is can we replace him during the suspension or do they have to cut him to get the roster spot?

"warhawk" wrote:



No, they can place him on the suspended list and the Packers receive a roster exception while he is on the Suspended list, caveat is he can't practice with the team.. so no, they don't have to cut him. * Edit for Example .. Vick was moved to the list last season and the Eagles carried 54 players on the roster.

Hence why I noted.. this actually works a bit in the Packers favor if they wish to hold onto him without an ramifications.. they don't owe his salary nor does he occupy an active roster spot.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
I abandoned this thread as soon as I saw the word "rapist." Some of you people seriously need to grow up.
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