Zero2Cool
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15 years ago
I'll pose this question in a new thread for a new debate as I feel it deserves it.



Edit, I'm looking things up on this while waiting.

(1) The intimidation and harassment suffered by the leaders of the society, the scholars, heads of tribes, merchants, academic teachers and other eminent individuals;

(2) The situation of the law within the country and the arbitrary declaration of what is Halal and Haram (lawful and unlawful) regardless of the Shari'ah as instituted by Allah;

(3) The state of the press and the media which became a tool of truth-hiding and misinformation; the media carried out the plan of the enemy of idolising cult of certain personalities and spreading scandals among the believers to repel the people away from their religion, as Allah, the Exalted said: {surely- as for- those who love that scandal should circulate between the believers, they shall have a grievous chastisement in this world and in the here after} (An-Noor, 24:19).

(4) Abuse and confiscation of human rights;

(5) The financial and the economical situation of the country and the frightening future in the view of the enormous amount of debts and interest owed by the government; this is at the time when the wealth of the Ummah being wasted to satisfy personal desires of certain individuals!! while imposing more custom duties and taxes on the nation. (the prophet said about the woman who committed adultery: "She repented in such a way sufficient to bring forgiveness to a custom collector!!").

(6) The miserable situation of the social services and infra-structure especially the water service and supply , the basic requirement of life.,

(7) The state of the ill-trained and ill-prepared army and the impotence of its commander in chief despite the incredible amount of money that has been spent on the army. The gulf war clearly exposed the situation.,

(8) Shari'a law was suspended and man made law was used instead.,

(9) And as far as the foreign policy is concerned the report exposed not only how this policy has disregarded the Islamic issues and ignored the Muslims, but also how help and support were provided to the enemy against the Muslims; the cases of Gaza-Ariha and the communist in the south of Yemen are still fresh in the memory, and more can be said.

"Osama bin Laden 1996" wrote:




First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples. (1)

If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless.

Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation. (2)

So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.

Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula. (3)

"Osama bin Laden 1998" wrote:


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Zero2Cool
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15 years ago

I'm fighting so I can die a martyr and go to heaven to meet God. Our fight now is against the Americans.

"Osama bin Laden 9/12/2001" wrote:





It is what we instigated for a while, in self-defence ... So if avenging the killing of our people is terrorism, let history be a witness that we are terrorists.

"Osama bin Laden 10/20/2001" wrote:






The tape also contains bin Laden's first public acknowledgment of al-Qaeda's involvement in the attacks on the U.S., noting that he first thought about attacking the World Trade Center in 1982, after watching Israeli aircraft bomb Lebanon during the 1982 Invasion of Lebanon:

While I was looking at these destroyed towers in Lebanon, it sparked in my mind that the tyrant should be punished with the same and that we should destroy towers in America, so that it tastes what we taste and would be deterred from killing our children and women.

"Osama bin Laden 2004" wrote:



He also admits for the first time a direct link to the attacks, saying that they were carried out because

we are a free people who do not accept injustice, and we want to regain the freedom of our nation.

"Osama bin Laden 2004" wrote:

Bin Laden threatens further retaliation against the U.S., noting that the conditions which provoked the 2001 attacks still exist and compares America to "corrupt" Arab governments.

He speaks of his desire to bankrupt the U.S., saying:

[It is] easy for us to provoke and bait this administration. All that we have to do is to send two mujahidin to the furthest point east to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al-Qaeda, in order to make the generals race there and cause America to suffer human, economic, and political losses ... This is in addition to our having experience in using guerrilla warfare and the war of attrition to fight tyrannical superpowers, as we, alongside the mujahidin, bled Russia for 10 years, until it went bankrupt and was forced to withdraw in defeat.

"Osama bin Laden 2004" wrote:





So, prior to the Lebanon bombing from Israeli bin Laden was able to carry on board his Camel Hair Moose and after the bombing was not and this upset him. He wanted to get even with those who stripped that freedom with him and wanted them to share the same loss of freedom he has endured.


So, you fling poop at me, I fling poop at you?
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Pack93z
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15 years ago
Why are we hated... especially in that region.. is because we stick our noses into a centuries old battle over land tied to religion.. chose a pony in the fight.. a fight we had no business getting involved in.. other than our interests in the oil under the land.

The rest, IMO.. is diversion of this simple premise.. we got involved in something that we had no reason to get involved in.. other than to protect the precious flow of oil which honestly is more precious than gold.

And our country would collapse in a heartbeat without that oil.. self preservation on our part. Our way of life is dependent upon it.. and that is the only reason we stuck our noses in it.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Zero2Cool
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15 years ago
What did we stick our noses in? Sadam's overtaking of Kuwait? I thought that happened in the 90's and the information I'm finding that sparked the hatred by Osama started in the early 80's.


I'm not pretending to know, I'm seriously asking ... this stuff interests me.
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Pack93z
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15 years ago
It does deeper into history than that.. started around WWII... here article and summary quote... this has been decades in the making.. we stuck our noses into it with Israel.. our pony in the fight..

Short .. we are there for the oil and inserted ourselves into the religious fight with Israel.. which is where the hatred stems.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3865983 

As World War II ended, the United States became the great outside power in the Middle East, with three main concerns: Persian Gulf oil; support and protection of the new nation of Israel; and containment of the Soviet Union. The goals proved difficult to manage, especially through the rise of Arab nationalism, two major Arab-Israeli wars and an Arab oil embargo.


"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Zero2Cool
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15 years ago
So, my complaint/beef that we aren't pushing hard enough for non-combustion transportation is valid?
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Pack93z
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15 years ago

So, my complaint/beef that we aren't pushing hard enough for non-combustion transportation is valid?

"Zero2Cool" wrote:



It isn't that over the years that better options have been developed.. it is they have been suppressed to protect our economy as status quo.

Zombie wants to sell that our freedoms are being diminished with over reaction to 9/11... while I buy into some of it.. truth is we haven't been free for a long time.

Black gold has ruled this nation.. trapped common people in the society to the pump for damn near a century. There are better options.. but not ones in which the government can control the resources, the channels to tax, and the automobile cash cow of yesteryear.

We are today paying for our sins of being tied to oil.. and it has Washington.. no matter the rhetoric they pump out.. scared to death of letting go of that revenue stream.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Zero2Cool
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15 years ago
If we were to use electric or steam powered vehicles, our economy would suffer?

I don't understand that because we are spending billions to import oil from other countries.
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Pack93z
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15 years ago

If we were to use electric or steam powered vehicles, our economy would suffer?

I don't understand that because we are spending billions to import oil from other countries.

"Zero2Cool" wrote:



Steam.. how do you tax water? Readily available to the average American?

Electricity as we know it today relies mostly upon fossil fuels.. but the limitations on the range of electric vehicles has been its downfall. With the changes in the battery concepts that may change in the near future.

You have renewable resources that could be used for fuel sources that are a heck of a lot cheaper to operate and better for the environment.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Zero2Cool
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15 years ago

If we were to use electric or steam powered vehicles, our economy would suffer?

I don't understand that because we are spending billions to import oil from other countries.

"pack93z" wrote:



Steam.. how do you tax water? Readily available to the average American?

Electricity as we know it today relies mostly upon fossil fuels.. but the limitations on the range of electric vehicles has been its downfall. With the changes in the battery concepts that may change in the near future.

You have renewable resources that could be used for fuel sources that are a heck of a lot cheaper to operate and better for the environment.

"Zero2Cool" wrote:



Bah, don't focus on the examples provided geez, lol.

I'm asking WHY is Oil so vital to our economy over everything else? You gave a portion of what I feel is your answer, tax-ability.

Factor in the amount of money we spend on gas a year and consider we can put that towards other things, wouldn't that help our economy? I know I spend just under $2,000 a year on gas alone, not including my oil changes. That's 2k I could be using for purchasing other things, which are also taxed.
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zombieslayer
15 years ago
Good stuff, both of you.

I personally don't think we have any business with Israel. Germany exploited the Jews, not us. Let them pay for that problem. We shouldn't be involved.

Pack - I agree with you that the dependence of foreign oil has diminished a lot of our freedoms and have wrote about it many times on my blog. I have also offered alternatives.

Eisenhower built the Interstate system. JFK built the space program. I would love to see our generation break the dependence of foreign oil. It can be done.
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Cheesey
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15 years ago
It can be done, using other fuels. But truth is, people like BinLaden will hate and want to kill us, either way. They don't like our way of life, or the God most of us worship.
People like that will come up with any excuse they can to give them the "right" to kill us. To make it the "right" thing to do, in their own minds.

How do you understand the mind of a madman?
Adolph Hitler came up with perfectly understandable reasons to wipe out the Jews, black people, and Polish people. They were lower on the evolutionary scale. Isn't that a good reason? (That was sarcasm, don't want ANYONE to think i think that's a good reason to murder) But to some, it WAS considered a good reason. But you have to think on the same level as Hitler to agree with that. And many people did just that. Just as there are those that follow Bib Laden and other nut cases around the world.
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Wade
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15 years ago

Good stuff, both of you.

I personally don't think we have any business with Israel. Germany exploited the Jews, not us. Let them pay for that problem. We shouldn't be involved.

Pack - I agree with you that the dependence of foreign oil has diminished a lot of our freedoms and have wrote about it many times on my blog. I have also offered alternatives.

Eisenhower built the Interstate system. JFK built the space program. I would love to see our generation break the dependence of foreign oil. It can be done.

"zombieslayer" wrote:

oil is important because:

(a) it is still the cheapest mass source of energy we have. When the price of oil goes up, people start to "discover" more and more ways to substitute other stuff.

(b) if is still the cheapest mass resource for a lot of the stuff we use every day, like the plastic in the keys on your keyboard or in your packaging or in your paint or....etc etc etc. When the price of oil goes up, people start to "discover" more and more ways to substitute other stuff.

If people want to reduce dependence on foreign oil, they should be applauding every increase in price of gas. Instead, we delay the inevitable and find way after way to keep the price low.

As to the OP on why Osama bin Laden hates the USA? Because he's a small minded goon whose only "skill" is preying on the fears of people. And preaching hate is an easy way to manipulate people's fears.

Take this "thousands of years of conflict over religion" argument that Shawn highlighted. (Or is it Shaun, I apologize, no one ever told me the correct spelling). It's a great metaphor for a lot of reasons. But one reason its great is that it justifies playing the fear card.

Osama can say, "they've been doing this to us for thousand of years". The israelis can do the same thing. And Saddam. And so can Qaddafy. And so can anyone else who wants to justify their morally reprehensible behavior based on fear ot "them."

Unfortunately, it's not so. Oh, sure, there have been wars between Christians and Muslims. Lots of them. Lots of atrocities, too. But if you look close at the history of "that part of the world" since, say, 1000 A.D., what you find is that "Christian v. Muslim" is just a subset of what's happened. And even the "Christian v. Muslim" part is only sometimes about religion.

Look at why dynasties and empires rose and fell, look at why trade occured and abated, look at why assasinations and wars and all the rest happened, and you discover the striking fact that Osama bin Laden shares much of the appalling historical ignorance about geopolitics with recent American political leadership on both sides of the political aisle.

Am I saying that American politicians are 'equivalent' to bin Laden? No. But if you hear someone claiming to be a "leader" relying on "thousands of years of religious conflict" to justify their actions/proposed actions, recognize that they are speaking out of ignorance and playing on your fears.

I guess what I'm saying is that I really don't care why bin Laden thinks what he does. The real question is why do people listen to him? And how do we stop people from listening to him.

And the only answer I can come up with, and I find it appallingly depressing because as a teacher of history I know a little bit about how nigh on impossible this is, is that we need to spend our time trying to get people to recognize that what is going on is not *about* religion at all, but about being captive of our fears and our historical ignorance.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
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Cheesey
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15 years ago
Wade said "The real question is why do people listen to him?"
GREAT point.
Sadly, there are MANY followers, that will follow a nut case like him. We see it throughout history.
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alharrisdude31
15 years ago
all i know is them dam towelheads better not take over my plane when i go on vacation
porky88
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15 years ago

I would love to see our generation break the dependence of foreign oil. It can be done.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



I would hope you're young then because the current generation in office has no intentions of breaking off of foreign oil. It'll take another ten to twenty years.

As far as Osama. Sometimes a mad man is just a mad man.
Rockmolder
15 years ago
Osama has his reasons and if you can bring them in a certain way, you can get quite a following.

He's not some Captain Planet villain* who's evil just for the sake of being evil.

There's some history behind this, like people have been explaining before. Israel just being founded there. Western civilization backing Israel up in just about every situation. I can imagine that he's not exactly in love with the US and Europe.

Not that I agree with what he does, obviously.

*Remember? Stealing a giant oiltanker and running it smack into a beach, just to teach the baby seals a lesson and getting their behinds whooped by Captain Planet instead of selling the damn thing.
Pack93z
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15 years ago

Osama has his reasons and if you can bring them in a certain way, you can get quite a following.

He's not some Captain Planet villain* who's evil just for the sake of being evil.

There's some history behind this, like people have been explaining before. Israel just being founded there. Western civilization backing Israel up in just about every situation. I can imagine that he's not exactly in love with the US and Europe.

Not that I agree with what he does, obviously.

*Remember? Stealing a giant oiltanker and running it smack into a beach, just to teach the baby seals a lesson and getting their behinds whooped by Captain Planet instead of selling the damn thing.

"Rockmolder" wrote:



This is exactly what I was getting at.. remove yourself from our sheltered life here and try to view it from their point of view.. we America on our own will decided to get involved in something that we had no business being in.. because of our need for the resources under the land.

Freshman year of college I was roomed in the apartment on campus with one gent from China, one from India, and a soccer player from Milwaukee.. I learned more sitting in the apartment speaking with the two gents from afar and their viewpoints of America than I could have learned in a semester of classes.. this was in the late 1990... it was eye opening just how we were viewed then.. I really wonder how different it would be now. Lets just say we, as a nation we not thought of very highly.. and it had nothing to do with we the people or what we did here.. it was exclusively foreign affairs.

Fast forward just about 16 years.. I joined this firm I work for now and had the pleasure of working with a guy from Pakistan.. he had been living here for about a decade.. he loved it here and the people. But he echoed the same view.. and he kept bringing up our Israel connections and the sacred land it is located upon.. to him the land and its history is what the hatred was based upon from their point of view. Holy land and we helped decide its fate..

I despise his actions and would have no problem ending him, even personally.. but I wonder how many thousands of innocent people we helped end for that black gold in that region.. a place we should have little say in at all.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Cheesey
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15 years ago
So....Israel has no right to be there? Who decides that?
What if somone says THEY have a "right" to "sacred land" in Mexico. Should we just stand by and let someone take it over, because it's none of our business?
When you talk to people who think they have a "right" to some piece of land that someone else lives on, what do you think they will say about someone that wants to help those that are protecting those on the land? Of course they are going to "hate" those people too.
All of it doesn't surprise me. The story hasn't changed from the days of the Bible. The Egyptions hate the Israelites. That will NEVER change.

As far as our dependence on foreign oil. You can thank the "tree huggers" that stopped all the oil drilling in the U.S. Drive across Texas sometime. You will be AMAZED at all the "dead" oil wells you will see. Fire those babies up, start drilling in Alaska, and we could supply alot of our OWN oil. Maybe not all we need, but enough to bring prices down to reasonable, and enough that IF the foreign countries tried to shut us off, that we could at least survive.
Now, we are at their mercy. Not a good place to be, in my view.
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Pack93z
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15 years ago


All of it doesn't surprise me. The story hasn't changed from the days of the Bible. The Egyptions hate the Israelites. That will NEVER change.

"Cheesey" wrote:



Exactly.. and we are hated because we stepped into something that is not our fight and picked a side.

What if Russia or China were to say to us, either change the newly minted immigration law in Arizona for a abstract example or else face our armed forces.. how well do you think that would be received?

Now imagine they actually intervened there forces into the issue?

You don't think the majority of Americans would quickly hate them? You bet they would.

We had no business getting involved in that holy war that will probably never end..
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
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