Twinkie,

I think one of Wades comments hit it on the head. I certianly don't hold myself superior. not at all. I feel my belief is correct. And the fact is, one of the religions (athiest is a religion too) is correct.

If your religion or any other religion is correct, christians (who practice christianity and are christlike to others) go where ever others go.

If there is no god then it doesnt matter. We all end up in a pile of dust.

However, if Christ was who he said he was, then only those who accepted his gift spend eternity with him. In its very nature, yes christianity is exclusionary of all other beliefs.

Also, I suggest you study what christ said as your comments are incorrect about christians. We get to heaven through accepting Jesus' gift. His sacrifice. Not through works.

I feel I am right and you are wrong. no one is superior. But in the end, who is suffering the worse consequence if they are wrong? To me, that is worth making damn sure of all your convictions.

And it isn't even the thought of loss of christianity that is tearing the moral fabric of this country. I think it is the lack of accountability. As a christian I am accountable to my God. Anyone who a believer in God (any faith) are accountable.

If I have no accountability to a supreme being then who do I have to be accountable to? Why not pillage, rape, and kill? If I am serving no one elses then am I ok to sewrve and think only of my own needs?

Once again, no thought of acting Superior. Cheesey and a few others on this site have met and spent time with me in person and I don't think they would view me as that.

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no it is not. if at any time evidence were shown to me which proved me wrong i'd not ignore it (very much unlike religion). this is a 12 part debate which you can watch. it covers the grounds quite nicely. also, the newest user-quote sums the whole damn thing up in a succinct sentence. ;)

[youtube]VVppTZxFn3Q&feature=related[/youtube]



i was raised in a catholic household and am thoroughly versed in what you believe in.



the way in which you conduct yourself in front of others does not suggest you are able to separate the two. "this country is crap because we've moved away from my belief" suggests very loudly that "your people" are superior...once again...whether you want to keep denying that is up to you.



as i stated earlier, if there is truly a "God" who is so narcissistic that he would send me to a place of eternal suffering for not believing in him rather than judge me for being a genuinely kind, caring and charitable person who always seeks to do the right thing for people in his life...then i want nothing to do with him/her/it anyway.



un-freakin'-believable. so doing "The Right Thing" just because it is the right thing is foreign or counter-intuitive to you? if that is the case i truly do pity you then. i would never say this about anybody...but my god...what a bleak outlook on life. there is not an evil person in my immediate life, and also not a single religious one (outside of my family). and from all the news you must not be reading...accountability to a "God" is certainly not very effective from keeping people from murdering each other. especially when nobody can agree on whose "God" is the real "God".



you're right. i probably wouldn't. we'd watch a game and jump up and down cheering for Driver and his one arm catches. but the minute you open your mouth and say "i'm right, you're wrong--infallibly" or "this country would be better off if everybody believed in God" i'd put my drink down, shake your hand and wish you well, yet truly have no desire to spend another moment in your company.

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Ok, I read your link. When deciding if the writings are that of an expert, I must look at what other work in that area have they done that has been recognized by "recognized experts". Shanna (the author) has none.

She is simply a blogger in cajun country who has four or five cats and spend an inordinate time on the computer.

Taht being said, that does not neccesarily dismiss your findings or what I say her interpetations. What I saw was quite a bit of twisting and not complete research into the statements. (not that they are all correct)

If you would like, I would be happy (given a proper amount of time) to go through her comments point by point and deliver my own research.

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twisting. interesting. see, anybody who wants a quote to go their way they say the other twisted. i happened upon a random blog by a person who claimed neutrality and then did research. neutrality was the reason i chose this particular link.



no, not really. your view is so diametrically opposed to my own and coming from such a specific place that at this point there really isn't much you could say which would convince me that you were void of a personal agenda. well...that, and i don't really care about the topic enough in the first place. i jumped into this thread because of your holiness, not because of the way you can research history to suit your debate.

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note: being catholic does not mean you are thoroughly versed in what I believe in. I too was brought up catholic. Went to catholic grades school and high school. It drove me away.

The catholic church teaches guilt and getting to heaven (or place in heaven) on acts. It also does not encourage studying the bible (I should say didn't as I have heard things are changing since they are losing so many parishinars).

Let me ask you as question and then give you an analogy of getting to heaven.

If I offer you a gift. Do you not have to accept it to enjoy the reward it brings?

God is Just. He has simply said that in order to get to heaven, you must accept what his son did for you (die so your sins may beforgiven). That is the gift. The reward is heaven. the consequences is seperation. He is not being mean. It is our decision to accept or refuse his gift so it is our decision should we have eternal seperation.

I hear your argument alot. (if there is truly a "God" who is so narcissistic that he would send me to a place of eternal suffering for not believing in him rather than judge me for being a genuinely kind, caring and charitable person who always seeks to do the right thing for people in his life...then i want nothing to do with him/her/it anyway. )

Imagine your dad is a Judge in the local court. He loves you. But one day you end up in front of him for speeding. The fine is $500 or 30 days in jail.

He knows you don't have the money. But as a Judge, he must find you guilty of speeding and order you to pay or spend time in jail. If he just lets you off the hook he is not being just in his position.

After giving you your chioces and knowing you yourself cannot pay the fine, he then takes off his robe, comes and stands next to you and offers to pay the court for you.

You have a choice. Accept his generousity or suffer the consequences.

God is standing next to all of us offering to pay for our eternal sins. All we have to do is accept. accept that Jesus died for us so we can have eternal salvation.


un-freakin'-believable. so doing "The Right Thing" just because it is the right thing is foreign or counter-intuitive to you? if that is the case i truly do pity you then. i would never say this about anybody...but my god...what a bleak outlook on life. there is not an evil person in my immediate life, and also not a single religious one (outside of my family). and from all the news you must not be reading...accountability to a "God" is certainly not very effective from keeping people from murdering each other. especially when nobody can agree on whose "God" is the real "God".


Where did I say it was counter intuitive to me? Stop putting words into my mouth. You are very adept at letting me know what I think and how I view myself compared to others....unfortunately you are very mistaken.

What in your opinion makes people care to do the right thing? How are we different from animals? What causes us to have a conscious? Most people do the right thing because that is what was taught to them from their parents. as they get older they are influenced by their peers and cernters of influence. As more people (IMO) get away from their religious bases, their kids have less of a moral compass.

You have a moral compass and I will assume it is pretty decent. Didn't you say your parents had religious background? hmmm .

If a parent steals, does drugs, and kills, what regard for life does the child have? If the parent reads the bible and it teaches the golden rule then what does the child learn?

Religious Zealots are not an accurate representations of religion and you know it. They take on section of thier belief and do not consider it in context. That being said, I would still say that more crime is committed by those without a belief than those that have one.

As far as your personal view, I would enjoy watching a packer game and I would still hang out with you even if we did talk religion. In my opinion, you are worthy of hanging out with even with your views. However, apparently I am not worthy of your presence because of mine.

So who is really being self rightous?

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One pedant's point:

Well, there was that Reformation thing. Not all "Christians" think like "Catholics" on the subject of works v. faith. (And, of course, not all Catholics think the same, either.)

Signed,
Martin Luther

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Her comments before dissecting the letter. Hardly smells of neutrality

I have always been under the impression that our founding fathers were Deists and Masons. It's not to say that they were not Christian, but that perhaps their world-view was a bit broader than your average, conservative Bible-beater. Those that were known to have actively studied Christianity I believed were merely, as Deists, reviewing it as part and parcel of their study of *all* religions and religious beliefs in their thirst of knowledge and personal truth.

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Just remember Twinkie, when we do find out the truth, it will be too late to change our "belief".

religion or not.

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first, let me say that there is so much in your post which i would love to address but i am tired. i may go point for point tomorrow at work (though ironically the end result would be a study in pointlessness) for nothing more than my will to address how wrong i perceive each of your statements as being. but for now, dropping the personal beliefs out the door for something more humane and important, i'd like to address this...then go to bed.



you are again attempting to turn the tables on me, when it is not the case. in no instance of us hanging out--were ideas and world views to come into discussion--would i ever claim i was infallibly correct. i would never claim that this country was in a worse place because of religious people who felt they were accountable to the abstract idea of an omniscient deity (which would be the opposite of the post you made which i took issue with). i would never claim to have the answer to the universe, nor would i excuse, disavow or patronize somebody for what they perceive. however, you--were this subject to come up and i found you espousing your views as if you were privy to some sort of divine self-actualization based on nothing more than stories passed down to you, would--yes--turn me off. turn me off enough that i would find myself seeking company of a sort less likely to convince me that my belief in evidence and lack of belief in the supernatural would lead me to an eternity of suffering.

call it negative energy, if you will, but it's just not the type of environment that i enjoy.

picture yourself in the company of a religion you find silly (likely every single religion but your own) and picture somebody with a straight face telling you that you are headed down the wrong path because you don't believe in what they believe. maybe it doesn't make you take offense, because...obviously, you believe that you are correct and they are wrong...but surely you'd grow tired of their rhetoric and your will to surround yourself in that environment would dwindle rapidly. now picture yourself as me, listening to you tell me that this country is morally objectionable because God is a lesser part of our lives.

p.s. as for the quip about my parents: cute, and sneaky. but fortunately for me what i took from my parents were the bits which made sense like "don't hurt somebody unless you would like to be hurt". the rest of my world-view came from my continuing quest of knowledge and truth through every medium i could/can/continue to get my hands on.

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I figured as soon as I'd mention where I stand (read: the referenced post you mention) you'd change whatever opinion on me.



This is my sole issue with your belief. You have every right to believe whatever you choose. But as soon as I have to walk on damned eggshells with my faith because you or someone else will twist your perception of me (i.e. calling us 'holy rollers' or 'high horsemen' or whatever terms you use), I just have to drop the gauntlets and just shoot from the hip. No matter what I say at that point, you are going to take issue (Note: When I say 'you' here.. I don't just mean you personally.. I mean those people that feel the same way as you do).

TL;DR version.. Since me stating my faith will offend certain people anyway, I take the gloves off to save myself the stress.

Hence the 'me loosing my shit' post.

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