dingus
15 years ago
Yeah, I wish Obama had stuck to war and tax cuts for the rich like all the good presidents do! Why waste time on domestic issues like regulating the financial institutions and reforming health care when we've got so much invested in our Military? I'm sure there's somebody out there jealous of our freedom that we haven't bombed yet!

Wait a tic! That's Obama's plan! Take away all of our rights so no one will hate us anymore!

Genius!

This thread is going nowhere fast.
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Formo
15 years ago
The rich sign our paychecks. Shhh.. Don't tell anyone that, though.

Pack, no one is saying that healthcare doesn't need reform. The ones that are opposed to it are saying that this public option of reform isn't the answer. That's all.

And I couldn't agree more with Non's opinion on the pharmaceutical companies.
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Pack93z
15 years ago
First I reread your first post on the drug companies and I will admit I misread the paragraph that irritated me.. I apologize.

Myself, I don't take a damn thing unless I absolutely need it.. and I certainly don't see a doctor unless something is broken... if I could buy or make all the parts of my leg.. they wouldn't see me at all.

Back to your argument though.. why blame the patient for the doctors laziness or mistreatment of those in his care? Is it the patient that prescribes the drugs? Is it the patient that gets wined and dined by the drug companies to push their product?

You seemingly want to blame all health issues on the patient themselves.. not all health issues can be prevented with a proper diet and exercise, but your argument seems to be tailor to that end.


But whether or not I agree with the tactics or agendas of the pharmaceutical companies, I still don't believe that it's the role of government to interfere. Ultimately, the public needs to take responsibility for their own health and stop trying to foist accountability for their actions on the medical profession or the government. If they are dependent on toxic chemicals to survive due to poor lifestyle choices, are we to blame the monopoly, as you yourself described it, for taking advantage of that?

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



So whom can stop this practice of "Shouldering the cost on the Americans"? The drug companies themselves?

Yet public as little options but to purchase and pay the heavy toll for their practices. It is a monopoly.. at the basic roots and last time I checked monopolies in the US can be regulated. Again.. there is a reason these drug companies pour millions into the lobbying on the hill.. to protect their bottom line.

Holding a dominant position or a monopoly in the market is not illegal in itself, however certain categories of behavior can, when a business is dominant, be considered abusive and therefore be met with legal sanctions.



So again.. why if other monopolies can be regulated should health care or pharmaceuticals if outside of that realm when it affects every single citizen in America?

Do I want the government to regulate health care? Nope. But do I see the industry itself every regulating itself? Hell no.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
15 years ago

The people who bitch about the cost of healthcare in this country should be the very people advocating for LESS comprehensive insurance, not more. It's basic economics. Artificially inflated demand with a relatively inelastic supply drives up prices. It's unavoidable. Nothing in this healthcare plan will change that fundamental truth -- it will simply reduce supply in the end.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



There's more to it than that. You're ignoring the entire effect of cheaper health care due to continuous preventive/primary care vs. treatment of acute conditions that are so bad people end up in the ER for them. Consider a diabetic. What would be cheaper - giving him health coverage and having his diabetes treated regularly, or dealing with all of the array of complications as they arise in emergency situations?
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4PackGirl
15 years ago

I don't think anyone in this thread is blaming "the government" as some nebulous entity. I think we've all laid the blame for the problems we face at the feet of the American public. A country gets the government it deserves.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



so why are we arguing then? cuz some of YOU think you can come up with a better plan? that will like totally work cuz you figured it out on your lil calculator at homey home?? oops - sorry my smartass came out there.

who isn't blaming the gov't in this thread? i don't think very many people have really taken responsibility for the state the country is in. at least i haven't seen it from very many here. all i see is 'obama's a communist, we're gonna be the next russia, & i have this great plan'!! greed begets greed - be in politicians, pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies, or joe q public. we're a bunch of greedy sob's who are finally getting what we deserve!!

i wish i grew up in the 50's when my parents did. what a magical time.
Pack93z
15 years ago
Now here is a more comprehensive look at the reality of health care.. the common thread that binds the majority... greed.

Here are some of the reasons which all lead to more expensive health care for everyone:

Insurance companies are businesses. Their business mission is to make money, not to make people healthy. They make more money when they charge higher premiums and cover fewer health expensesand over the years, they've regularly done both, as one "well-paid huckster" (a former CIGNA spokesman) said after an eye-opening flight aboard his company's private jet. Those insurance company private jets and multi-million-dollar executive salaries are part of the reason for constantly rising rates (up 131% over the past decade) which lead to more expensive health care for everyone.

No electronic records. People are freaked out by electronic health records, largely because they fear the records will be used to jack up their insurance rates or deny them coverage. As explained in books such as The Innovator's Prescription, however, without electronic records, doctors do not know exactly how a customer has been diagnosed and treated in the past, and they're likely to order repeat tests and write prescriptions for medications that have already been proven ineffective. What we have is a system routinely filled with inefficiencies and duplication of efforts which leads to more expensive health care for everyone.

"Perverse incentives." Doctors and hospitals get paid not for keeping their patients healthy, but for the specific, expense-able services they provide. They earn more money for each test, office visit, and treatment that occurs. With such an incentive system, the rational capitalist approach is to have more tests, more office visits, and more treatments. And that's pretty much what happens. In this sort of system, a perfectly healthy patient brings the doctor and the hospital no income, whereas a chronically unhealthy patient is a much better customer. The incentives encourage more services while not encouraging overall health which leads to more expensive health care for everyone.

Malpractice madness. As much as 10 of every dollar of your doctor's bill goes to cover the doc's malpractice insurance. There's no ceiling on how much a doctor can be sued for, and the costs of rising malpractice rates are passed along to the patients which leads to more expensive health care for everyone.

Malpractice madness #2. Doctors, ever fearful of being sued for doing too little, tend to go the other way and do too much. Facing the possibility of multi-million dollar lawsuits, they instinctively play it safe and order the extra test and prescribe the extra drug, even if they believe there's little point to do so. The doctors are thereby protected from getting sued down the line, but at the cost of being overdoing things and being extremely wasteful which leads to more expensive health care for everyone.

What do statistics mean anyway? Studies demonstrating that expensive surgeries yield no benefits to patients are sometimes disregarded by doctors. The WSJ cites one ground-breaking study on a particular heart surgery. The statistics showed that patients having the surgery fared no better than those who were simply given generic drugs. After the study made headlines in 2007, the number of these surgeries declined. But they have since returned to their levels before the study came out. Why? There seems to be no other reason than that doctors are paid for doing the surgery, and they're not paid when they don't do the surgery. So, study or no study, they do the surgery. They're disregarding a treatment's effectiveness and performing unnecessary surgeries which leads to more expensive health care for everyone.

Premium pricing in the ER. Out of fear or panic, or simply because they feel they have no other place to turn, many people go to the ER even when their symptoms suggest simple illnesses such as urinary tract infections or sore throats. And at the ER, their treatments cost as much as six times that of a perfectly capable urgent care facility. This is sorta like bringing your car into the dealer when all you really need is some wiper fluid from the hardware store. Whether the patient uses insurance to cover his ER bills or the hospital absorbs the cost because the patient has no insurance nor money to pay for the visit (collectively, a $36 billion tab in 2008), the costs are passed along to the masses in one way or another which leads to more expensive health care for everyone.

We're fat. Obesity adds $147 billion per year to our health care bills. Perhaps some portion of that tab would be better spent fighting obesityby making fresh fruits and vegetables readily available and less expensive everywhere, for instancerather than simply using the money to treat overweight people after the fact. For now, we're using a band-aid approach (XXXL ones, but band-aids nonetheless) to treat what amounts to internal bleeding. The approach only grows more expensive as more and more people become overweight which leads to more expensive health care for everyone.

We take more pills, and the pills make us fatter. One of the side effects of the increased use of psychiatric drugs is serious weight gain. There are high costs for the drugs, and there are high costs for treating the obesity produced partly by the drugs which leads to more expensive health care for everyone.

Antitrust exemption. For some reason, way back when someone thought it was a good idea to give the health insurance industry exemption from federal antitrust laws. The result, as a recent NY Times op-ed says, is that a small pool of insurers have been able to dominate the market, and customers have few other places to turn. WellPoint, which has drawn attention for 39% rate hikes in California, is the largest insurer in that state, and also controls 60% or more of the market in Maine, Missouri, and Indiana. The scene is one of very limited competition which leads to more expensive health care for everyone.

No shopping across state lines. Customers aren't allowed to buy their insurance from a company outside their state. It's another way that competition is limited which leads to more expensive health care for everyone.

What do I owe? That's what you ask. "How much does it cost?" is a different question, and one that the average health care consumer cares little about. Because most Americans use insurance to pay for even the most routine doctor's visits, and because employers or the government pay for a large portion of those insurance premiums, we have no idea whatsoever what's a good price for an MRI, or a cast for a broken wrist, or an annual checkup. And we don't care either. All we care about is how much the premiums and co-pays cost us at the time we pay them. Even if you did want to find out about the underlying coststhe true costs of such treatmentsit's all but impossible to do so. There is no marketplace, or at least none that the consumer can browse with any ease. Because we're so insulated from all of the costs, we cannot make informed, cost-conscious decisions, and the way most health insurance policies work right now, we have little reason to do so anyway. If we did, it's very likely that competition would kick in, and costs would come down, just like they have for treatments that aren't covered by insurance like Lasik surgery and cosmetic surgery, which the patient must pay for entirely on his own. As it stands, consumers are pretty much removed from price considerations which leads to, well, you know what it does.



http://money.blogs.time.com/2010/02/25/why-is-health-care-so-expensive-let-us-count-the-conspirators/#ixzz0jbTw2y5R 
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Formo
15 years ago

I don't think anyone in this thread is blaming "the government" as some nebulous entity. I think we've all laid the blame for the problems we face at the feet of the American public. A country gets the government it deserves.

"4PackGirl" wrote:



so why are we arguing then? cuz some of YOU think you can come up with a better plan? that will like totally work cuz you figured it out on your lil calculator at homey home?? oops - sorry my smartass came out there.

who isn't blaming the gov't in this thread? i don't think very many people have really taken responsibility for the state the country is in. at least i haven't seen it from very many here. all i see is 'obama's a communist, we're gonna be the next russia, & i have this great plan'!! greed begets greed - be in politicians, pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies, or joe q public. we're a bunch of greedy sob's who are finally getting what we deserve!!

i wish i grew up in the 50's when my parents did. what a magical time.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



Then what are YOU doing? I have the right to bitch about the direction of our country/politicans because I am engaged and caucus as much as I possibly can.. and much to my vote's dismay, I'm stuck with the group we have in St. Paul/Washington D.C. Hell yeah I can bitch.

At least I offered a constructive alternative to Obama-care. That's more than most people can say.
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vikesrule
15 years ago

I actually consider Obama and his likes socialists.. But calling him a communist stirs the pot more, and gets the uninformed thinking (well, the smart ones).

"Formo" wrote:



Interestingly ironic comment from someone that worships at the Rush Limbaugh alter of inane rhetoric and blowhard philosophy.

I'm guessing you lust after Ann Coulter as well.

"vikesrule" wrote:



Rush is the man.

"Formo" wrote:



And with that comment, any credibility of your opinions in this thread just died.

Limbaugh is nothing more than a chicken-hawk, draft dodging. racist, third rate piece of shit.
A worthless piece of humanity if you will, who only offers an alternative to intelligent thought.
He has no fact to base anything that comes out of his mouth and speaks purely out of his ass.

However, and as I have said before, he is on my 'bucket list'.
Since he and I are of the same age, it is one of my fervent wishes that I live long enough to take a crap on his grave.
digsthepack
15 years ago
Glad to see you possess the restraint that Rush apparently lacks, VR. And let's be clear, I am no fan....but I just get a kick out of those who hate the "haters" and how they position themselves as higher minded beings above such garbage.

Niiiice!
State Motto: "Wisconsin, our serial murderers eat their kill!"
Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago
Rush Limbaugh is a shock jock, a shill for hire, devoid of his own opinions, who pimps himself out for the Republican party as the putative conservative liberals love to hate. There are leftwing equivalents, of course. Alan Colmes comes to mind.
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