Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago

The good Samaratin works 80 hours a week and has 3 small children.

"DakotaT" wrote:



I never said nor implied that everyone needs to be directly involved with heatlhcare. That would be about as idiotic as the undercurrent of contempt for civilians that runs through the military community. There are many ways to serve. However, whether we're involved in hands-on care, or resesarch into new treatments, or in development of new technologies, or in production of food that keeps the doctors and nurses on their feet, or whatever we do, we can all do a little to support the people on the front lines.

He trusts King Herod to do the right thing cause he's tired.

"DakotaT" wrote:



The Germans trusted the Nazis; the Russians trusted the Soviets; the Chinese trusted the Maoists. I never trust government. The purpose of the 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with self-protection -- it has everything to do with restraining the power over the government of the USA.
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DakotaT
15 years ago

The good Samaratin works 80 hours a week and has 3 small children.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



I never said nor implied that everyone needs to be directly involved with heatlhcare. That would be about as idiotic as the undercurrent of contempt for civilians that runs through the military community. There are many ways to serve. However, whether we're involved in hands-on care, or resesarch into new treatments, or in development of new technologies, or in production of food that keeps the doctors and nurses on their feet, or whatever we do, we can all do a little to support the people on the front lines.

He trusts King Herod to do the right thing cause he's tired.

"DakotaT" wrote:



The Germans trusted the Nazis; the Russians trusted the Soviets; the Chinese trusted the Maoists. I never trust government. The purpose of the 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with self-protection -- it has everything to do with restraining the power over the government of the USA.

"DakotaT" wrote:




Won't you just let me pay my taxes without bitching, and let me move on? I already let VR pick on me all the time, isn't that enough charity work?
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Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago

And at the same time you say health care is a luxury, that doesn't jibe with a want for universal health care.

"dingus" wrote:



Just because I have idealistic notions of universal health care doesn't mean I think it's a right. It's still a luxury. Someone has to pay for it. I may have dreams of providing it to those who cannot afford it, but someone -- either myself or my donors -- are paying for it. It isn't free. Nor, as much as I think people should contribute to medical causes, do I think anyone should be forced to. I believe it's a matter of personal choice and of conscience.

Governments are capable of doing great things for their constituents

"dingus" wrote:



And a scalpel is capable of cutting a cake, too, but that isn't its purpose. It's not the purpose of government to do good. The purpose of government is to play referee on the field, not to ensure all teams have equal talents and abilities.

No offense is intended Non, I hope you know that.

"dingus" wrote:



I do know that. I was just operating on too little sleep and thus was feeling a bit depressed, which caused me to overreact a bit. Normally, your statements wouldn't have phased me.
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Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago
By the way, pack93z, my argument is that it's the very abuse of comprehensive health insurance plans that makes it so difficult for people who really need prolonged are, like yourself, to obtain it. That's why I said people who need better access should be advocating for less comprehensive health insurance -- thereby less unnecessary demand -- rather than more.
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4PackGirl
15 years ago
what i fail to understand is that we sit here, once again, blaming it ALL on the gov't when we have put the country in this situation. until we each take responsibility for our own actions & greed, this country is headed in the toilet. we have nobody to blame but ourselves. politicians allow us to have someone to blame so we don't have to do anything.

the next time you think you deserve more than what you actually have, look at yourself in the mirror & check that attitude at the door! nobody deserves any more than what they've worked for. if you're lucky enough to be given more, count your blessings & save it for a rainy day.
Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago
I don't think anyone in this thread is blaming "the government" as some nebulous entity. I think we've all laid the blame for the problems we face at the feet of the American public. A country gets the government it deserves.
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Pack93z
15 years ago

By the way, pack93z, my argument is that it's the very abuse of comprehensive health insurance plans that makes it so difficult for people who really need prolonged are, like yourself, to obtain it. That's why I said people who need better access should be advocating for less comprehensive health insurance -- thereby less unnecessary demand -- rather than more.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



And how exactly is that going to help the cost of health care?

I fail to see how that is going to remove the greed from the system and those that will continue to bilk the hospitals after receiving the care.

You are operating under the assumption that it will cut off care to those that can't afford it. It won't.. all it will do in the end is cost those that have the means to pay, to pay even a greater share of the overall burden of health care.

In the perfect vacuum, all that should effect the cost health care is a simple supply and demand curve, but the system isn't built like that. You have malpractice, billing fraud, corporate greed at the hospital levels and supplier levels, and people that suffer from all different levels of hypochondria.

Not to mention the baby boomers that are soaking up a good percentage of the resources in the system.. what next genocide of the health care for boomers because are zapping the resources for the rest?

Simply put.. until you regulate or somehow put a control on the raw cost of health care and strip away some of the fraud (institution and patient) from the system... any of these steps, IMO, are just a band aid to a gushing wound.

Like it or not.. health care is a need for all people.. not just the ones that have the means to afford it.

BTW... a little more in the nobility of your drug companies footing the bill for R&D. Wonder why they lobby on the hill eh.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/76xx/doc7615/10-02-DrugR-D.pdf 

The Role of Federal Research and
Development

The federal government spent more than $25 billion on
health-related R&D in 2005. Only some of that spending is explicitly related to the development of new pharmaceuticals.
However, much of it is devoted to basic
research on the mechanisms of disease, which underpins
the pharmaceutical industrys search for new drugs.
The primary rationale for the government to play a role
in basic research is that private companies perform too
little such research themselves (relative to what is best for
society). In general, the information generated by basic
research can be readily replicated at low cost. Thus, many
of the benefits of that research accrue not to the company
that performs it but to the public and to other firms.
With pharmaceuticals, those spillover benefits can be significant
because the development of new drugs depends
on scientific advances. Federal funding of basic research
directly stimulates the drug industrys spending on
applied research and development by making scientific
discoveries that expand the industrys opportunities for
R&D.
Government-funded basic research can also stimulate
private-sector R&D indirectly. By supporting graduate
students and postdoctoral researchers in academic labs
where basic research is conducted, federal grants help to
train many of the researchers who are hired by drug companies.
That training enhances the productivity and profitability
of the companies R&D investments, while also
allowing researchers to command higher salaries.
Given the extent of federal funding for life-sciences
research, however, there is a risk that some of that funding
could crowd out private-sector investment in R&D.
In general, the government tends to focus on basic
research, whereas private firms focus much more on
applied research and development. That difference
diminishes the risk of direct crowding out. But the distinction
between basic and applied research is not well
defined, and the division of labor between the two has
become less pronounced as the potential commercial
value of basic life-sciences research has become more
widely recognized. Government and private R&D efforts
have sometimes overlapped (as in the race to finish mapping
the human genome); thus, the government may
have funded some research that the private sector otherwise
would have financed. Identifying specific cases
where direct crowding out has occurred is difficult, but it
is probably most likely to happen when the government
funds research whose potential commercial applications
are obvious and valuable.
Federal R&D spending can also crowd out private spending
indirectly by causing labor costs to rise. Although students
and postdoctoral researchers form part of the workforce
for federally funded research, the government and
the drug industry both draw on the same supply of
trained professional researchers. That supply is relatively
fixed in the short run, and higher R&D spending in
either sector can cause salaries to rise by increasing the
demand for researchers. That is more likely to occur
when R&D spending is growing rapidly. In recent years,
both real (inflation-adjusted) salaries for biomedical
researchers and total employment in biomedical research
have increased along with real R&D spending. When
R&D spending is growing more slowly, however, there is
probably little such effect on labor costs for professional
researchers.


"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Cheesey
15 years ago
fact is, the majority of Americans did NOT want this healthcare package.
Yet it was shoved down our throats by Obama.
He's your typical liberal. He will do what HE thinks is best for you, reguardless of what you think or want. HE knows better.
Even though he SUPPOSEDLY works for us.
This isn't the end, either. EXPECT more "We know better" type crap to be forced upon us.
As long as certain people are in power, that's what we will get.
America......you ASKED for this......you GOT it. it will only get worse. mark my words.
Our freedoms will be taken, one at a time.
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Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago
Dude, what are you on about with this "nobility of the pharmaceutical companies" bullshit?

I don't mind if you disagree with my opinions, but when you persist in reading into a list of facts that I state with no agenda or interpretation attached, I get annoyed. Not everything I say is polemic or argumentative, nor does it have an agenda behind it -- very often (as with my description of the Jefferson Bible in another thread), I'm purely trying to be informative.

The fact is that in an effort to expand market penetration, pharmaceutical companies have chosen to place the entire burden of R&D costs on the American public. I never attached an opinion to that statement. I certainly never said I agreed with these companies' decision -- in fact, I explicitly pointed out that if the costs of R&D were shared by everyone alike, Americans would pay lower drug costs. But the fact is that spreading out the costs in other markets would bring up prices in other countries beyond what they'd be willing (or in some cases able) to pay. Since that would hurt the pharmaceutical companies' bottom line, they have made the (from a corporate standpoint) sensible business decision to lay these costs on American shoulders.

Of all the people on the board, I'm the last one you should be trying to accuse of believing in the "nobility of the pharmaceutical companies." I am without a doubt the biggest drug skeptic on this board. I want to be a doctor precisely to steer my patients away from using pharmaceuticals. My undergraduate research is in helminthic therapy -- a non-pharmaceutical approach to treating autoimmune diseases. I would love nothing more than to see the back of the pharmaceutical industry broken, but that will only happen when the public stops viewing the medical field as a collection of witch doctors who can prevent or cure chronic, degenerative disease and starts to take steps to live lifestyles conducive to the promotion and maintenance of good health. The medical profession is good for one thing, and one thing only -- fixing you up when you're broken. If I get in a traumatic car accident, for the love of God take me to an American hospital! But to keep me from developing heart disease or cancer, the medical profession is powerless.

But whether or not I agree with the tactics or agendas of the pharmaceutical companies, I still don't believe that it's the role of government to interfere. Ultimately, the public needs to take responsibility for their own health and stop trying to foist accountability for their actions on the medical profession or the government. If they are dependent on toxic chemicals to survive due to poor lifestyle choices, are we to blame the monopoly, as you yourself described it, for taking advantage of that?
UserPostedImage
Pack93z
15 years ago
The majority of Americans didn't support bailing out the greed on Wall Street, yet a Bush lead government crammed that down our throats and we spent about the same amount to do so.. yet some will label this only as socialism.

Again.. I don't agree with the mean that they choose to try and correct the system, I gag over the display of rejoicing down because the bill passed on the hill.. but I fail to see how this is any different than administrations before them.

Government hasn't worked for the people for a long time, directly listening to what they want.. I fail to see how that has changed.

But to stick ones head in the sand that health care doesn't need reform isn't the answer in my book.

BTW.. I think the mandate for Health Coverage will be challenged legally and be removed.. or it should constitutionally... but it won't be the first time our rights are stepped up if it doesn't.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
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