DakotaT
14 years ago

Sales and VAT taxes are not progressive, they act somewhat regressively! Do not think that rich people spend more, it is the reverse! A greater proportion of a lower income family's income is spent on consumption compared to a wealthy family, who may spend a lower proportion of their household income on consumption goods, where the rest of the money is invested, hoarded, wasted etc. Sales and VAT taxes do not work in isolation because it worsens the economic balance between the rich and the poor.

"TheEngineer" wrote:



Sales taxes are regressive. They hurt poorer people more. A national sales will also have an adverse effect on the economy, because what they don't tell you is that everything is going to be taxable, even services. What they also don't tell you is the fiscal note of replacing the current income tax rate. The national sales tax rate is going to be a lot higher than what we are paying at our local rates.

National sales is being pushed by the Republican Party because the wealthy Republicans are tired of being overtaxed with the current system. I don't really have a problem with that line of thinking exept for the moral obligation to humanity that many wealthy seem to be willing to set aside for the perceived fairness.

I don't like the fact that there is a free lunch out there for those that choose to live that way, but I've come to the realization in life that if that is how a person wants to constrict himself to a lifestyle, then the system is in place for abuse. Initiative is not inherited trait, it is a learned behavior. I have more of a problem with the upper 10 percent continuing a lifestyle of a king, when a great percentage of them had it all handed to them on a silver platter.

There is not going to be a great equalizer tax system, it's just not possible. What I have witnessed in life is that a balanced tax system is what works best, but having lower rates in all. The problem is politics because PACs talk Legislators into allowing self serving exemptions and credits.
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Formo
14 years ago

Sales and VAT taxes are not progressive, they act somewhat regressively! Do not think that rich people spend more, it is the reverse! A greater proportion of a lower income family's income is spent on consumption compared to a wealthy family, who may spend a lower proportion of their household income on consumption goods, where the rest of the money is invested, hoarded, wasted etc. Sales and VAT taxes do not work in isolation because it worsens the economic balance between the rich and the poor.

"DakotaT" wrote:



Sales taxes are regressive. They hurt poorer people more. A national sales will also have an adverse effect on the economy, because what they don't tell you is that everything is going to be taxable, even services. What they also don't tell you is the fiscal note of replacing the current income tax rate. The national sales tax rate is going to be a lot higher than what we are paying at our local rates.

National sales is being pushed by the Republican Party because the wealthy Republicans are tired of being overtaxed with the current system. I don't really have a problem with that line of thinking exept for the moral obligation to humanity that many wealthy seem to be willing to set aside for the perceived fairness.

I don't like the fact that there is a free lunch out there for those that choose to live that way, but I've come to the realization in life that if that is how a person wants to constrict himself to a lifestyle, then the system is in place for abuse. Initiative is not inherited trait, it is a learned behavior. I have more of a problem with the upper 10 percent continuing a lifestyle of a king, when a great percentage of them had it all handed to them on a silver platter.

There is not going to be a great equalizer tax system, it's just not possible. What I have witnessed in life is that a balanced tax system is what works best, but having lower rates in all. The problem is politics because PACs talk Legislators into allowing self serving exemptions and credits.

"TheEngineer" wrote:



You do realize the bolded is a very wrong statement, right? I'll have to go find my numbers, but the percentage of the wealthy that inherited their wealth is really low. You just have a problem with people making more money than you.. Which is fine, but taking their money away doesn't help anything. Here's a novel idea.. Figure out a way to make more than them! -=gasp!=- I know it's a groundbreaking thought. :thumbright:

BTW, there is NO free lunch out there. Ever. There is no proof you can display that can support that there is. Nothing is ever free.

The point of a sales/VAT tax is to have a flat rate on everything. Yes.. EVERYTHING. You can't tell me it'll tax the poor people more, because they buy less. The $2,000 I spend on a monthly amount is WAAAAAAY less than any person that makes $100k a year spends. I want to know where in the hell you guys come up with the idea that the poor will be taxed more with this tax system.

Also, last thought.. Why do the rich have to help the poor? The best way they could help the poor is to teach them how to get rich, right? (the old give a man a fish-he eats for a day, teach a man to fish-he eats for the rest of his life thing) How does giving the poor a bigger tax break help them to get rich (or how to handle the money they got)?

I guess I'm not in the camp that says to feel sorry or pity the poor and give them money. You want more money? Here's a job, work your way up like the rest of the wealthy have!
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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
ah...Formo gets an A in econ class. 🙂
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Formo
14 years ago

ah...Formo gets an A in econ class. :)

"Wade" wrote:



I don't know if you are joking.. But I laughed.

Mostly because my econ teacher in high school tried to fail me my senior year (econ was a required credit to graduate). He didn't teach anything, just gave us lecture after lecture after lecture, and graded us on how many notes we took and how many newspaper articles we read/took notes on/tested.

I find out later his agenda was to fail as many kids as possible. LOL

I deserved the F, but passed because my uncle would refuse to let me fail that class and told my teacher to give me the fair amount of papers to write to make up for my idiocy. Final verdict? 18 papers (front and back) on 18 different newspaper articles. It was a record he told me.

The only thing I learned in that class? What the BBB was.
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DakotaT
14 years ago
The reason my dear Formo that sales tax is regressive: you tax monthly consumables and lets say the person that makes $5,000 a month spends $200 a week on groceries and so does the person making $2,000 a month. You think they pay the same taxes right, well that same tax kicks the guy making $2,000 in the nuts a lot harder than the guy making $5,000. That's the definition ofo regressive taxes. It really is that simple.

And by the way, I can think whatever I want about silver spoon pricks that never had to earn anything in their life. I'm quite certain I've earned everything I have. You do realize I'm talking about those panty waistes that go from Daddy's mansion to the frat house to Wall Street, basically the dip shits that have been running our country for the last 100 years, convincing middle class America in the process that their enemy is the welfare case.

It's a little bit amusing to me that this country, that's been blessed with so much, cries like a bunch of pussies when it comes to paying their taxes. It's the same dipshits that cry piss and moan about taxes that also want their street cleared first, every pot hole fixed immediately, and their tax refund in a week.

A national sales tax is an OK idea to get us out of this debt, but as for a replacement for the Individual Income Tax; well let's just say your going to be paying around 25% on everything you buy. Real smart. How's that effect your economics Wade?
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Formo
14 years ago

The reason my dear Formo that sales tax is regressive: you tax monthly consumables and lets say the person that makes $5,000 a month spends $200 a week on groceries and so does the person making $2,000 a month. You think they pay the same taxes right, well that same tax kicks the guy making $2,000 in the nuts a lot harder than the guy making $5,000. That's the definition ofo regressive taxes. It really is that simple.

"DakotaT" wrote:



Here's a question then.. Why buy so much groceries? Seriously.. It's not that hard of an issue. Besides, that's just groceries. I'm willing to bet the guy making $5k/month spends more on entertainment and other things than the guy making $2k/month. It balances out.

And by the way, I can think whatever I want about silver spoon pricks that never had to earn anything in their life. I'm quite certain I've earned everything I have. You do realize I'm talking about those panty waistes that go from Daddy's mansion to the frat house to Wall Street, basically the dip shits that have been running our country for the last 100 years, convincing middle class America in the process that their enemy is the welfare case.

It's a little bit amusing to me that this country, that's been blessed with so much, cries like a bunch of pussies when it comes to paying their taxes. It's the same dipshits that cry piss and moan about taxes that also want their street cleared first, every pot hole fixed immediately, and their tax refund in a week.

A national sales tax is an OK idea to get us out of this debt, but as for a replacement for the Individual Income Tax; well let's just say your going to be paying around 25% on everything you buy. Real smart. How's that effect your economics Wade?

"DakotaT" wrote:



Then stop buying so much. =)

What it does is forces people to think about their purchases (you know, the same group of people that have the microwave mentality of I want such-and-such, and I want it NOW!). Hey, I'm with you on the rich that get their wealth handed to them.. Only 5% of those types of people ever expand their wealth (that number probably has changed since I last heard it). But the percentage of wealth that gets handed down isn't as much as you think.
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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago

ah...Formo gets an A in econ class. :)

"Formo" wrote:



I don't know if you are joking.. But I laughed.

Mostly because my econ teacher in high school tried to fail me my senior year (econ was a required credit to graduate). He didn't teach anything, just gave us lecture after lecture after lecture, and graded us on how many notes we took and how many newspaper articles we read/took notes on/tested.

I find out later his agenda was to fail as many kids as possible. LOL

I deserved the F, but passed because my uncle would refuse to let me fail that class and told my teacher to give me the fair amount of papers to write to make up for my idiocy. Final verdict? 18 papers (front and back) on 18 different newspaper articles. It was a record he told me.

The only thing I learned in that class? What the BBB was.

"Wade" wrote:



ah...no, I was serious. I agreed with you.

(oh yes, and the "regressive" argument is a red herring. Technically, a regressive tax is one where the tax _rate_ gets smaller.

Oh yes, and you could impose a 100 % tax on the _wealth_ of the top 5 percent (or the income of the top 15-20 percent), and the USA government would still be grossly bankrupt.

(most econ teachers suck, alas.)
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago

The reason my dear Formo that sales tax is regressive: you tax monthly consumables and lets say the person that makes $5,000 a month spends $200 a week on groceries and so does the person making $2,000 a month. You think they pay the same taxes right, well that same tax kicks the guy making $2,000 in the nuts a lot harder than the guy making $5,000. That's the definition ofo regressive taxes. It really is that simple.

And by the way, I can think whatever I want about silver spoon pricks that never had to earn anything in their life. I'm quite certain I've earned everything I have. You do realize I'm talking about those panty waistes that go from Daddy's mansion to the frat house to Wall Street, basically the dip shits that have been running our country for the last 100 years, convincing middle class America in the process that their enemy is the welfare case.

It's a little bit amusing to me that this country, that's been blessed with so much, cries like a bunch of pussies when it comes to paying their taxes. It's the same dipshits that cry piss and moan about taxes that also want their street cleared first, every pot hole fixed immediately, and their tax refund in a week.

A national sales tax is an OK idea to get us out of this debt, but as for a replacement for the Individual Income Tax; well let's just say your going to be paying around 25% on everything you buy. Real smart. How's that effect your economics Wade?

"DakotaT" wrote:



I think I said this above, Dakota, but I'll say it again.

All a tax does is re-distribute wealth from one pocket to another. That is the same whether it is a income tax, a sales tax, a VAT, or a sumptuary tax on lutefisk.

If you want to solve this country's economic problems, NO TAX PLAN, NONE, NADA, is going to do it. You need to find a way to figure out how to ratchet up the growth engine. FInd ways to create more wealth from which to pay the accumulating interest and, eventually, the principal.

Any politician, any economist, any journalist, any think tank who says otherwise is not worth listening to. Because they all are fulla shit.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
DakotaT
14 years ago



I think I said this above, Dakota, but I'll say it again.

All a tax does is re-distribute wealth from one pocket to another. That is the same whether it is a income tax, a sales tax, a VAT, or a sumptuary tax on lutefisk.

If you want to solve this country's economic problems, NO TAX PLAN, NONE, NADA, is going to do it. You need to find a way to figure out how to ratchet up the growth engine. FInd ways to create more wealth from which to pay the accumulating interest and, eventually, the principal.

"Wade" wrote:




Are we living some kind of fairy tale vacuum here? Who's paying the hard corp bills in this country without taxation. Are we relying people's good nature to donate the cabbage needed to fund schools, infrastruture, defense and everything else taxes are currently paying for?

Now in this discussion about point of taxation, I will always stand up for the poor man and want to tear down the rich. Throughout the centuries the wealthy have become that on the backs of the poor, they've held power, made the laws, and always were fighting against a one legged man in an ass kicking contest. My question is, do we ever evolve to a world without classes? If this country keeps on having an ever expanding gap between the wealthy and poor, we will fully understand what happened to Marie Antionette, because we will be seeing it.
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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
The Ancien Regime in France was corrupt to the core, yes.

And the French Revolution was all about empowering the people. And what the Committee on Public Safety (the group otherwise known as the Reign of Terror and the consensus pick as inspiration of the term "terrorism", was formed to do was ensure that the poor were so protected. Robispierre, the head of said Committee was in fact, before he came to power and realized (a) he was in over his head and (b) he _really_ liked being in charge, was in fact a "reformer."

And it collapsed as such notions inevitably do, because people think all it takes is to redistribute the wealth is to take from the rich and give to the poor.

Now if you want to argue that "poor person A" is a more productive person than "rich person B" in a lot of cases, I won't disagree. But I dare *anyone* to find a systematic principle upon which one can decide which of the poor and which of the rich ought to switch places.

And even if you could find such a principle, you'd still be stuck with the debt. You just have different people paying the interest now.

And you'd still be stuck with the reality that the only way you're going to deal with the problem is figure out how to increase the country's wealth at a rate that even that rapacious group of capitalist bastards, the single most successful group in human history at increasing a nation's wealth and sustaining that rate of increase, couldn't manage.

Peasant revolts have NEVER worked in the sustained way that the capitalist class have managed. And neither have working-man revolts.

Never.

And *I'm* living a fairy tale?
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
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