1.5 billion chinese don't hate us.

some chinese hate us. more chinese may hate us than iranis hate us, but that's probably because there are more chinese from which to draw a "hates us" sample than there are iranis.

i don't fear "the chinese" at all. I fear some chinese.

but i also fear some russians and some israelis and some arabs and some americans ... etc etc.

but what I really fear is if those I fear start banding together. if those who hate us have control in multiple countries.

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oh yes, and i fear the ignorant more than i fear the haters.

because imo, its myopia and irrationality, hate bears within it the seed of its own destruction. but ignorance...ignorance listens only to ignorance.

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I don't fear the Chinese either. I fear China. There is a subtle but important difference.

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Urgh. I'm assuming everyone can understand the distinction between the Chinese people and the Chinese government.

I really hope I don't need to put an asterisk every time I make a statement. But apparently I do.

OK, Chinese government = evil. Kills dissenters and uses their organs in organ trades. Totalitarian government (except in the countryside where they haven't had full control YET) that doesn't even allow them to use the freaking internet unless it's heavily censored.

Chinese people = people who are just trying to make it through day to day.

My hope is that their communist government gets overthrown. Was hoping until the Chinese government moved in with tanks and ran them over. If you read what happened at that protest (the real deal, not just the heavily edited politically correct version), it was downright nasty. Hard to finish reading.

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In defense of the Chinese government, I will acknowledge that they didn't run down Tank Man.

Show Spoiler

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Tank man wasn't run down. He became an unperson. But other people were run over. The media scattered when the shit hit the fan but we did get plenty of descriptions of protesters being shot to kill and anyone who didn't get out of the way got run over.

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Zombieslayer, check out this website. It's amazing:

http://www.mandiberg.com/2009/06/02/in-memory-of-the-man-in-front-of-the-tanks-tiananmen-20-years-later/ 

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Are the people in the Chinese government a bigger danger than the people in other governments?

Okay, I'll admit that they fit the definition of "evil" pretty well. And from the standpoint of, say, Tank Man, that's all that matters.

But I thought this argument was about whether they are to be *particularly* feared. All evils are to be feared. But all evils are not to be feared by all. And even of the evils that ought to be feared by all, all are not to be feared equally.

If it is a question of population, then it is not just the government that must be feared, but also at least some subset of the "non-government" people. And if it is not a question of population, then there must be something else.

What is that something else?

W

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Partly it's a question of logistical capability. Iran has essentially no ability to inflict substantial harm on the United States on a transoceanic basis (though obviously, Iran could attack regional United States-controlled targets), whereas China controls a vast oceanic fleet and an enormous ground-based army. Admittedly they are still lacking a substantive air force, but as I said previously, they are cozying up to Russia, which has produced some incredible fighter jets in recent years; there was recently an article in Spiegel about the latest Russian jet. What Russia lacks is the economic resources to mass-produce these jets -- resources China has in abundance and would be happy to provide.

Partly too, it's a question of economic clout. Iran has virtually no economic leverage over the United States whatsoever, beyond its ability to control a certain percentage of the world's oil, which as you pointed out in a recent post, is not such a fearsome power after all. China, by contrast, owns 40% of our foreign-held debt, and is currently about the only nation still buying US treasury bonds. Our formerly stalwart standby Japan has been a net seller of T-bonds for almost two years now, and Europe has all but frozen purchases of US sovereign debt. Moreover, the United States has been running a mind-boggling trade deficit for decades with China; last year alone, it amounted to $226.826 billion, or nearly a billion dollars per DAY. (Historically, over the past decade, it's averaged about $2 billion per week.) China holds a virtual stranglehold over the U.S. economy by virtue of this position.

Yes, it would destroy its currency in the short term were it to play hardball and call the federal debt, but when one considers the Asian mentality, if that was the sacrifice required to attain the supremacy China desires, I can see them being willing to take that risk.

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By the way, a question for people who are afraid of Iran but discount the China threat:

Who is bankrolling Iran to the tune of billions of dollars, and supplying them with tons of valuable technology?

If you guessed China, you'd be correct.

And before you rush to the defense of Israel, answer this question: Who sold China a lot of the technology they have since sold to Iran?

If you answered Israel, you're right again.

And before you absolve the United States of all responsibility, answer one final question: Where did Israel get a lot of the technology they subsequently sold to China?

If you answer the United States, once more you'd be correct.

Obviously, this is a gross oversimplification of the situation, but it's more true than false. A lot of countries our government has us afraid of are in the back pocket of China. China is great at finding cat's paws to do its dirty work. As my Burmese army buddy once told me (and my Burmese brother-in-law confirmed), virtually all southeastern Asian countries besides Vietnam, which hates China and has amassed a huge ground force on its border with China, are now little more than Chinese puppet states.

I'm not advocating that we invade China or bomb the shit out of their cities. I just think we should stop selling them the rope with which they're hoping to hang us.

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