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Mucky Tundra
2021-01-25T04:37:09Z
Packers have a decision to make about Mike Pettine 

Quote:

The moment when the football world realized the Packers need to make a change at defensive coordinator came right before halftime of the NFC Championship game. The Buccaneers had no timeouts, were out of field goal range, and needed to heave the ball to the endzone to make use of the final play of the half.

All the Packers needed to do was line up with safeties near the goal line, drop back into some deep zones, and knock the ball down. Packers defensive coordinator Mike Pettine seemed to lose track of the situation and called something that was just inexplicable.



That begs the question of who to replace him then?
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shield4life
2021-01-25T04:46:46Z
Go get Rex Ryan out of retirement, someone got to light the fire on the defense ass!
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beast
2021-01-25T05:56:48Z
I think they were trying to stop the FG there... and the real problem was they triple teamed one guy and left King all alone... either Sullivan or Redmond (probably Redmond) should have seen the 3 on 1 and realize that dude is clearly covered and go help the one on one in King.

I don't think Pettine is nearly the problem that lots of others do... and think it's the players talent more than the coaching scheme, but it might be the coach being able to lite a fire under their ass and play to their full potential.

But the question is who's better?

My favorite answer is Vic Fangio, but the Broncos didn't fire him (yet).

And the NFL just hired a number of defensive head coaches and they were replaced with coordinator, and I feel like very slim NFL pickings left...

There is Paul Guenther, who comes from under Mike Zimmer, and Gruden brought him in to the Raiders to bring a Zimmer type defense, though he didn't exactly have great tools to work with, and might of just been fired as a scapegoat (like Nathaniel Hackett was), or he might actually be not be the best defensive coordinator.

There is Jim Schwartz with his high risk, high reward, tons of man coverage... but we better draft lots of good coverage DBs for that, but he might get the most of the pass rush we got.

See if Rex Ryan is willing to leave the comforts and stress free of media for a defensive coordinator job (usually those guys stay unless they get a head coaching job... and Rex was known to bring a lot of attitude, both good and bad).

Todd Wash from the Jaguars... we got Nathaniel Hackett from the Jaguars, and he hasn't been bad.

Jerry Gray from new DB coach to DC, which I don't know how all the others coaches would feel about, but he's the only one with DC experience.


Some DC from college ball...

Kirby Smart from Georgia

Jon Heacock from Iowa State, which as my limited understanding, came up with the 3-3-5 to get their best defenders on the field and limit the high power Big 12 offenses and it quickly worked and the 3-3-5 confused Rodgers a bit, as the Panthers with their formerly college coaches were running it.


That, and r give Pettine another year and hope Vic Fangio or Mike Vrabel are fired and willing to take the job next year...

The options aren't the best right now...
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hardrocker950
2021-01-25T05:56:53Z
Originally Posted by: Mucky Tundra 

Packers have a decision to make about Mike Pettine 



That begs the question of who to replace him then?



Someone who knows what press coverage is. A bonus if he knows that blitzing is a good idea before you are down multiple scores.

Right now I think we could hire a 4 year old with crayons and get the same results.

Can we send Zook with him?
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beast
2021-01-25T06:07:58Z
Originally Posted by: hardrocker950 

Someone who knows what press coverage is. A bonus if he knows that blitzing is a good idea before you are down multiple scores.

Right now I think we could hire a 4 year old with crayons and get the same results.

Can we send Zook with him?


Pettie is thought to know more about press than most as he has had defenses run heavy press, but it seems like it's mostly gone out of fashion right now in the NFL, which normally means teams have found something that easily beats it. Back in the day people could name a ton of press CBs, now it's a hell lot harder... especially ones that aren't past their prime like Richard Sherman.

As for blitzing, all fans want to blitz more... but do you really trust King, Sullivan and Redmond to hold up in single coverage while you blitz?

You can only blitz if you think you can get home while.your coverage holds up in more one on one coverages... that or like Jets defensive coordinator, you just don't care and you blitz anyways.

Not blitzing should have land to at least 4 INTs of Brady... if not more... and as Pettine said before the game, you aren't tricking Brady, he's seen it all. And should of held Brady's high powered offense to 24 or 27 points.


But you give them some better coverage guys (and that's what I was calling for in the last draft), then I have no problem saying blitz more... but I don't trust are non-top guys in single coverage at all... non-blitzing was smarter. Yeah, maybe he should of thrown a few more im there, but there certainly should not be a lot as Brady would pick it apart every time it didn't get home.


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nerdmann
2021-01-25T06:23:01Z
How many times was the D caught with 12 men on the field?
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Mucky Tundra
2021-01-25T06:28:03Z
Originally Posted by: nerdmann 

How many times was the D caught with 12 men on the field?



Ooo good one nerd. Twice I would believe. And it's not the first time it's happened this year and they've had to burn TOs to get it right.
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all_about_da_packers
2021-01-25T10:16:41Z
Originally Posted by: Mucky Tundra 

Ooo good one nerd. Twice I would believe. And it's not the first time it's happened this year and they've had to burn TOs to get it right.



... How exactly is too many men on the field on D the fault of Mike Pettine? Last I checked, Pettine's job is to make and relay the play call, with position coaches relaying the information to their players on who should be subbing in/out. If the suggestion is that Mike Pettine is getting the playcall in too late, then please link me that article/post (because, in such a scenario, Pettine certainly does deserve blame for 12 men on the field calls); but blindly placing all issues at the feet of Mike is not good insight.

As for Pettine's playcalling before the half: if Will Redmond makes the INT on 3rd and 3 with 13 seconds left, there is no TD from Miller. Or, if Kevin King isn't side-stepping most of the way for Miller's route, maybe it's a different outcome - that's poor technique and not the playcall. And there is no way you can tell me with a straight face that Pettine's playcalling required King to hold on the last PI call of the game. Again, that's on the player and not the DC.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Mike Pettine is without fault (I am, to put it lightly, still baffled by the single-high look on Miller's TD before the half), but these overreaction threads aren't insightful.

There are maddening issues that kept appearing throughout this season, but Pettine's defense improved. As he's gotten more talent (Kirksey, Barnes, Martin) and maturity (Gary, Savage) from players, Pettine has - overall - produced better results. I'm mildly curious to see what Pettine can do with a better D-line (Lowry and Lancaster are miscast as anything more than fillers, IMO) and more maturity from the ILBs (particularly Barnes and Martin). Wishful thinking: if we can get a CB even 75% of Jaire offers us ... man, I don't even know if we need better D-line or ILBs because this D will make a noticeable leap.

Of all the reasons we lost the game, Mike Pettine isn't at the top of my list. Our D came out in the second half and gave up 10 total points and created 2 turnovers... if I offered you that performance at halftime, you'd be a fool not to take it. I do expect Pettine to be back, but there has been enough indication that LaFleur is puzzled by some of the things going on with our D (like constantly playing 8-10 yards off with the opposing team only needing 2 or 3 yards for a 1st down) that I wouldn't be too surprised to see Pettine let go.

My concern is that so many issues form last year's debacle showed up again today that fall on LaFleur/Hackett/Rodgers: no variance with offense's tempo, turning to A-Rod hero ball to save us, letting the other team dictate the terms of play and as a result moving away from the run, moments looking like the other team knew exactly what was coming (which, you'd think, shouldn't have happened after the Bucs said the Packers offense was predictable after their week 6 win).
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go.pack.go.
2021-01-25T10:17:04Z
Originally Posted by: beast 

Pettie is thought to know more about press than most as he has had defenses run heavy press, but it seems like it's mostly gone out of fashion right now in the NFL, which normally means teams have found something that easily beats it. Back in the day people could name a ton of press CBs, now it's a hell lot harder... especially ones that aren't past their prime like Richard Sherman.

As for blitzing, all fans want to blitz more... but do you really trust King, Sullivan and Redmond to hold up in single coverage while you blitz?

You can only blitz if you think you can get home while.your coverage holds up in more one on one coverages... that or like Jets defensive coordinator, you just don't care and you blitz anyways.

Not blitzing should have land to at least 4 INTs of Brady... if not more... and as Pettine said before the game, you aren't tricking Brady, he's seen it all. And should of held Brady's high powered offense to 24 or 27 points.


But you give them some better coverage guys (and that's what I was calling for in the last draft), then I have no problem saying blitz more... but I don't trust are non-top guys in single coverage at all... non-blitzing was smarter. Yeah, maybe he should of thrown a few more im there, but there certainly should not be a lot as Brady would pick it apart every time it didn't get home.



To be fair, at least one interception was caused by blitzing Savage. He got in his face in a hurry and Brady got scared and just heaved it up there.
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Zero2Cool
2021-01-25T12:44:50Z
Originally Posted by: beast 

I think they were trying to stop the FG there... and the real problem was they triple teamed one guy and left King all alone... either Sullivan or Redmond (probably Redmond) should have seen the 3 on 1 and realize that dude is clearly covered and go help the one on one in King.

I don't think Pettine is nearly the problem that lots of others do... and think it's the players talent more than the coaching scheme, but it might be the coach being able to lite a fire under their ass and play to their full potential.



Are you saying one of the players should have noticed this during the play or pre-snap? And what if two realize it and move over? I don't think that's the right approach. This was one of those cases where there is 8 seconds left and they have no timeouts left and you should play soft.

What's frustrating from my view is when it's third and 4 our defensive backs are 8 yards back. That is when you press and get in their face, not when they need 39 yards for a touchdown with 8 seconds left.

I don't know who it is. There has to be some young up an comer who can scheme LB's into the QB's face. What the Buccaneers have is what I want and I hate they got it and we don't.
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nerdmann
2021-01-25T15:59:15Z
Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 

Are you saying one of the players should have noticed this during the play or pre-snap? And what if two realize it and move over? I don't think that's the right approach. This was one of those cases where there is 8 seconds left and they have no timeouts left and you should play soft.

What's frustrating from my view is when it's third and 4 our defensive backs are 8 yards back. That is when you press and get in their face, not when they need 39 yards for a touchdown with 8 seconds left.

I don't know who it is. There has to be some young up an comer who can scheme LB's into the QB's face. What the Buccaneers have is what I want and I hate they got it and we don't.



Sick of seeing that shit.

Allowing that TD is unacceptable. Turned oit to be the winning margin too.

What also disgusted me was muktiple "12 men on the field" penalties. No one on the Packers can claim to be unaware of that possibility, as Aaron catches people on it constantly. So why are we getting called on it in the Championship game? It's downright sloppy.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Mucky Tundra
2021-01-26T06:34:37Z
Originally Posted by: all_about_da_packers 

... How exactly is too many men on the field on D the fault of Mike Pettine? Last I checked, Pettine's job is to make and relay the play call, with position coaches relaying the information to their players on who should be subbing in/out. If the suggestion is that Mike Pettine is getting the playcall in too late, then please link me that article/post (because, in such a scenario, Pettine certainly does deserve blame for 12 men on the field calls); but blindly placing all issues at the feet of Mike is not good insight.



Why wouldn't it be Pettines fault? Isn't he ultimately responsible for everything on the defense (good and bad)? Isn't he responsible for the position coaches under his authority? This isn't the first time they've had trouble getting guys on and off the field this season on defense.
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all_about_da_packers
2021-01-28T08:10:20Z
Originally Posted by: Mucky Tundra 

Why wouldn't it be Pettines fault? Isn't he ultimately responsible for everything on the defense (good and bad)? Isn't he responsible for the position coaches under his authority? This isn't the first time they've had trouble getting guys on and off the field this season on defense.



By that logic, blame the head coach, who delegates defensive duties to Pettine (and I'll note it was reported that LaFleur, not Pettine, was responsible for filling the DB-coach vacancy last year with Jerry Gray). I'll take your argument to it's logical extreme: let's blame Mark Murphy since both LaFleur and Gutey - the two guys responsible for collection and training of the defensive staff/players - report to him. An absence of evidence that Pettine is relaying calls late or Pettine has final say on personnel subbing during games does not itself serve as evidence that gameday subbing/logistical issues deserve to be put at the feet of Pettine.

I'm not saying Pettine isn't at fault (like I noted before, some of his play calls were baffling and seemingly without any consideration of down-distance-time remaining) - but to blame him blindly for every issue on D isn't right either. I'll point out we've seen on the offensive side of the ball delayed relaying of calls/getting lined up that leads to wasting timeouts to avoid a delay of game - this suggests there may be a broader game ops issue that LaFleur needs to sort out beyond just the defensive side of the ball.

Either way, 12-men on the field penalties shouldn't be disproportionately weighted when assessing if Pettine should be the DC of the team (assuming LaFleur wants him back and Pettine is willing to renew his contract).
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nerdmann
2021-01-28T21:51:47Z
Originally Posted by: all_about_da_packers 

By that logic, blame the head coach, who delegates defensive duties to Pettine (and I'll note it was reported that LaFleur, not Pettine, was responsible for filling the DB-coach vacancy last year with Jerry Gray). I'll take your argument to it's logical extreme: let's blame Mark Murphy since both LaFleur and Gutey - the two guys responsible for collection and training of the defensive staff/players - report to him. An absence of evidence that Pettine is relaying calls late or Pettine has final say on personnel subbing during games does not itself serve as evidence that gameday subbing/logistical issues deserve to be put at the feet of Pettine.

I'm not saying Pettine isn't at fault (like I noted before, some of his play calls were baffling and seemingly without any consideration of down-distance-time remaining) - but to blame him blindly for every issue on D isn't right either. I'll point out we've seen on the offensive side of the ball delayed relaying of calls/getting lined up that leads to wasting timeouts to avoid a delay of game - this suggests there may be a broader game ops issue that LaFleur needs to sort out beyond just the defensive side of the ball.

Either way, 12-men on the field penalties shouldn't be disproportionately weighted when assessing if Pettine should be the DC of the team (assuming LaFleur wants him back and Pettine is willing to renew his contract).



Matt is still highly valuable on offense.
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all_about_da_packers
2021-01-28T22:39:15Z
Originally Posted by: nerdmann 

Matt is still highly valuable on offense.



I don't disagree. My point is that there are some game ops issues that have showed themselves throughout the season on both sides of the ball. Ultimately, LaFleur (who is head coach responsible for both offensive and defensive sides of the ball) should at least explore the reason for these issues occurring at various points across the season.

It's quite possible we aren't privy to info that would show Pettine sucks on game day communication (I mean, if your boss calls you out publicly on something like LaFleur did on off-coverage by CBS with minimal distance to go, and that still doesn't lead you to prevent that from occurring entirely.... it does say something negative about you/Pettine). But what Lord Sixth (best avatar on here, hands down, Mucky) was suggesting displayed faulty logic, IMO.
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Cheesey
2021-01-28T23:31:14Z
Why have a D-coordinator, if he’s not the one responsible for the defense calls?
The head coach, who happens to also be making the offensive play calls, shouldn’t have to hold the hand of the man GETTING PAID to handle the defense side of the ball.
And if it’s proven that that guy isn’t handling the job when it matters most, he screwed up, and should be held responsible.
He SHOULD have pulled King out of the game when it became obvious he wasn’t talented enough (or smart enough) to do his job.
Put ANYONE else in! They couldn’t do any worse then King did.
So.... someone has to be held responsible.
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porky88
2021-01-29T00:15:59Z
The defense gave up just 10 points and forced 3 turnovers in the second half. Their adjustments worked.

Pettine made the wrong call at the end of the half, but Kevin King was playing the deep out and he should have kept the receiver in front of him. Again, it was the wrong call but you need better football IQ from your CB in that moment.

Personally, I would bring Pettine back. The defense has steadily improved in my view. I also don’t see a logical replacement at this point.
all_about_da_packers
2021-01-29T04:16:25Z
Originally Posted by: Cheesey 

Put ANYONE else in! They couldn’t do any worse then King did.



... Do you really believe that? I mean, having seen Ahmad Carrol, Joey Thomas, Jarret Bush (at CB, not the ST ace), LaDarius Gunter... you seriously think we couldn't have one of the backups do worse than King? Heck, just our #3 CB, Chandon Sullivan, was getting beat all over the field too.

I would agree King's performance was, at best, a shade better than "can this guy even play in the NFL" levels of atrocious. But just the performance of our #3 CB in the game would suggest the backups to King could do worse.

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Cheesey
2021-01-29T04:30:05Z
In this case, yes.
I don’t think anyone could have done more to lose the game for us.
He didn’t just screw up once. It was multiple times.
If a guy on offense fumbles, and does it consistently, chances are he won’t see the field.
King was a 100% liability.

So why not at least try to stop the bleeding?
But they didn’t, and the best shot the Packers had to go to the super bowl was wasted.
Two years in a row, the same team that beat us in the regular season knocked us out in the playoffs. Coincidence? I doubt it.
Their coaches must know something. Tampa lost 5 games, so they were not unbeatable.
Our offense also laid an egg. They had their shots in the second half.
I guess I’m just frustrated.
I really thought our team was better then Tampa. My emotions are still raw.
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beast
2021-01-29T06:03:42Z
Originally Posted by: Cheesey 


Two years in a row, the same team that beat us in the regular season knocked us out in the playoffs. Coincidence? I doubt it.


Two years in a row that the team with the best matchups against the Packers beat the Packers...

The NFL is all about matchups, and the Packers live and die with their offensive and defensive fronts (for this argument let's call OLBer linemen as in the 3-4 they're edge rushers and therefore are linemen).


The Packers best talent is in their linemen... if the WRs/CBs have a bad day, the linemen have been usually been able to pick up the up the slack (or get some luck) and have still won the game.

If the linemen have trouble... oh boy, you're in for the long ass day... as you can see by all of our losses over the last two years invovled that. Love Adams and Alexander, and like Amos and Savage but the WR/TE and CB/S as a whole, can't nessarily pick the slack for when the linemen are getting beat.

49ers and Bucs have linemen on both sides of the ball that could either beat or at least stalemate our linemen.... AND Packers have struggled against teams with coverage LBers as the Packers outside is RB passes, and when LBers like the 49ers, Bucs, Vikings and Colts have, can cover our RB and can beat our lines... the Packers are in trouble.


The NFL is all about matchups... I thought the Bears 2018 team was it? Was going to go to the Super Bowl as long as they could avoid the Eagles because that was a bad matchup... but nope... drew them in the first round and a hard fought game and a double doink later, and they got knocked out in the first round by the Eagles.

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beast
2021-01-29T06:09:05Z
Originally Posted by: Cheesey 


If a guy on offense fumbles, and does it consistently, chances are he won’t see the field.
King was a 100% liability.

So why not at least try to stop the bleeding?


Because the other options are worse, much worse... how worse? Josh Jackson and Hollman haven't even been active in the last couple of games...

Yeah you could bench King... but then who do you ask to play RCB?

Sullivan who's been at nickel all year and having some of his own troubles?

Tramon Williams who's past his prime, hasn't practice much with the team this year and the Packers choose not to bring back even at dirt cheap prices until the post season?

Or Savage? I'll be honest, I'm not completely against trying this idea, but I'd want to do it in practice and a Regular season game first...




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Zero2Cool (9-Feb) : Former NFL coach Marty Schottenheimer has passed away,
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Mucky Tundra (9-Feb) : Zero, the penalties were a little iffy and compared to what was going on when GB played Tampa absolutely nothing. Throw in the timing of them (bailed Tampa out of INT and a failed 3rd down conversion)
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