DakotaT
14 years ago

I don't follow. Are you arguing that such senseless acts as jumping off buildings should be outlawed? How are such laws enforceable? If someone decides to jump off the Empire State Building (as happened last week), how are you going to punish him? Some laws are pointless, no matter how sensible they may look on paper.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:




My point is that wearing a seatbelt isn't a freedom, it's common sense backed up by statistics. Just because common sense didn't kick in until the 70's doesn't make it a freedom for stubborn people to draw a line in the sand and make an argument.


You argue that there should be tremendous freedoms but tremedous responsibility. Well, not that high of a percentage are capable of the responsibility part so that is why the laws are made for the overall good of the society.
UserPostedImage
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago

you are free to purchase it of your choice.

"pack93z" wrote:



This is only partially true. Yes, you may have the option of which company to purchase it from, but you do not have the option of what kind of insurance to buy. Read the article I posted above: this bill makes it mandatory to buy full, comprehensive coverage in all cases, even for things you don't need or want. At the same time, it restricts the ability of insurance companies to raise rates. What this means is that as it becomes less profitable to sell insurance (already the profit margins, though large in absolute numbers, are actually quite slim), there will eventually be fewer providers of health insurance. So in the end there will be fewer choices for purchasing insurance.

And yes, not having health insurance and not paying paying your bills does have a negative harm to others as they are the ones that have to pay the increases to cover that unpaid debt.

"pack93z" wrote:



I've already said there should be ramifications and consequences for failure to pay bills. If that means people work their ass off at menial labor to pay off their debts, so be it. But it's not the government's role to tell people what form of payment they should make.

you are free to purchase health insurance of your choice.. which is your responsibility to other citizens in the health care pool.. correct?

"pack93z" wrote:



No. Your responsibility is to pay your bills. How you choose to pay them is up to you. Failure to pay for a service is theft. If the hospital is willing to take cash, volunteer labor, or payment in kind, so be it.

I wish the health care industry was different.. I wish the leeches of the system were cut off, I wish the health care burden was less per capita in this country..

"pack93z" wrote:



If the system needs to be reformed, it is these issues that should be addressed. Hospitals and clinics should have discretion over which complaints can be treated, so that leeches can't abuse our emergency rooms with frivolous complaints and providers aren't forced to subsidize people engaged in self-destructive behaviors. Insurance companies should be able to raise rates on (or deny coverage to) people who engage in dangerous lifestyle choices since they are actuarially greater risks to cover. Healthcare providers should have the ability to deny treatment to people who are delinquent in their bills. We need a culture of change in this country in which healthcare is viewed as an option of last resort, not as a collection of witch doctors to be consulted for every ache and pain. Medicare and Medicaid, if we insist on keeping this programs, should pay healthcare providers rates commensurate with what private insurance pays, so that they aren't forced to raise fees on everyone else to compensate.

If these types of reforms were to happen, catastrophic health insurance would become quite affordable for the average person, since insurance companies wouldn't be paying out so much for trivial issues. Comprehensive insurance would be available, at a premium, for those who needed it or wanted it enough to be willing to pay for it. The vast majority of people in my age group -- excluding those with chronic degenerative conditions -- would not to purchase such plans because they aren't necessary for them.

Most of all, of course, we need a sea change in the American lifestyle. We are becoming one of the sickest nations in the world. The overwhelming majority of money spent on healthcare goes to pay for diseases of lifestyle: heart disease, cancer, diabetes, AIDS, etc. For the first time in history, we are seeing prepubescent boys dying of heart attacks, children born with cancer and atheriosclerosis, young girls suffering from breast cancer. Obesity in this country is rampant. Until we tackle those issues headon, our healthcare costs are only going to continue to skyrocket.
UserPostedImage
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago

not that high of a percentage are capable of the responsibility part

"DakotaT" wrote:



This is akin to the argument that drugs should be illegal "to protect the risk takers." Of course, it's those very risk takers who are abusing the drugs when they're illegal.

I'm a firm believer in natural selection -- in the sense of allowing everyone to make of themselves what they can, not in the sense of "might makes right." If people are incapable of responsibility, as you say (an attitude that strikes me as condescending beyond belief), perhaps we should let themselves eliminate themselves . . . for the overall good of society. How does it benefit society to coddle idiots and allow them to survive?
UserPostedImage
Pack93z
14 years ago



you are free to purchase health insurance of your choice.. which is your responsibility to other citizens in the health care pool.. correct?

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



No. Your responsibility is to pay your bills. How you choose to pay them is up to you. Failure to pay for a service is theft. If the hospital is willing to take cash, volunteer labor, or payment in kind, so be it.

"pack93z" wrote:



But those that lax on their responsibility pass the cost burden onto those that can pay for it.. not direct but indirectly via increases in patient costs.

So by your definition above.. the government should impose legislation to prevent harm to the other paying patients of the health care model.. correct?


I wish the health care industry was different.. I wish the leeches of the system were cut off, I wish the health care burden was less per capita in this country..

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



If the system needs to be reformed, it is these issues that should be addressed. Hospitals and clinics should have discretion over which complaints can be treated, so that leeches can't abuse our emergency rooms with frivolous complaints and providers aren't forced to subsidize people engaged in self-destructive behaviors. Insurance companies should be able to raise rates on (or deny coverage to) people who engage in dangerous lifestyle choices since they are actuarially greater risks to cover. Healthcare providers should have the ability to deny treatment to people who are delinquent in their bills. We need a culture of change in this country in which healthcare is viewed as an option of last resort, not as a collection of witch doctors to be consulted for every ache and pain. Medicare and Medicaid, if we insist on keeping this programs, should pay healthcare providers rates commensurate with what private insurance pays, so that they aren't forced to raise fees on everyone else to compensate.

If these types of reforms were to happen, catastrophic health insurance would become quite affordable for the average person, since insurance companies wouldn't be paying out so much for trivial issues. Comprehensive insurance would be available, at a premium, for those who needed it or wanted it enough to be willing to pay for it. The vast majority of people in my age group -- excluding those with chronic degenerative conditions -- would not to purchase such plans because they aren't necessary for them.

Most of all, of course, we need a sea change in the American lifestyle. We are becoming one of the sickest nations in the world. The overwhelming majority of money spent on healthcare goes to pay for diseases of lifestyle: heart disease, cancer, diabetes, AIDS, etc. For the first time in history, we are seeing prepubescent boys dying of heart attacks, children born with cancer and atheriosclerosis, young girls suffering from breast cancer. Obesity in this country is rampant. Until we tackle those issues headon, our healthcare costs are only going to continue to skyrocket.

"pack93z" wrote:



So now tell me.. if you are opposed to the current health care reform would you be open to the government stepping in and initiating your ideas?

Remember, you have argued that it isn't the governments place to place these restrictions upon you.. so whom pushes your ideas?
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
dhazer
14 years ago
Perfect for this area lol

1. Americans spend $36,000,000 at Wal-Mart Every hour of every day.
> >
2. This works out to $20,928 profit every minute!
> >
3. Wal-Mart will sell more from January 1 to St. Patrick's Day (March 17th) than
> > Target sells all year.
> >
4. Wal-Mart is bigger than Home Depot + Kroger + Target + Sears + Costco + K-Mart combined.
> >
5. Wal-Mart employs 1.6 million people and is the largest private Employer, and most speak English.
> >
6. Wal-Mart is the largest company in the history of the World.
> >
7. Wal-Mart now sells more food than Kroger & Safeway combined, and keep in mind they did this in only 15 years.
> >
8. During this same period, 31 supermarket chains sought bankruptcy.
> >
9. Wal-Mart now sells more food than any other store in the world.
> >
10. Wal-Mart has approx 3,900 stores in the USA of which 1,906 are Super Centers; this is 1,000 more than it had 5 Years ago.
> >
11. This year 7.2 billion different purchasing experiences will occur At a Wal-Mart store. (Earth's population is approximately 6.5 Billion.)
> >
12. 90% of all Americans live within 15 miles of a Wal-Mart.
> >
You may think that I am complaining, but I am really laying the ground work for suggesting that MAYBE we should hire the guys who run Wal-Mart to Fix the economy.
>
This should be read and understood by all Americans
> >
Democrats,
Republicans,
EVERYONE!! > >
> > To President Obama and all 535 voting members of the Legislature,
> >
It is now official you are ALL corrupt morons:
> >
The U.S. Post Service was established in 1775. You have had 234 years to get it right and it is BROKE.
> >
Social Security was established in 1935. You have had 74 years to get it right and it is BROKE.
> >
Fannie Mae was established in 1938. You have had 71 years to get it right and it is BROKE.
> >
War on Poverty started in 1964. You have had 45 years to get it right; $ trillion of our money is confiscated each year and transferred to "the poor" and they only want more.
> >
Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965. You have had 44 years to get it right and they are BROKE.
> >
Freddie Mac was established in 1970. You have had 39 years to get it right and it is BROKE.
> >
The Department of Energy was created in 1977 to lessen our dependence on foreign oil. It has ballooned to 16,000 employees with a budget of $24 billion a year and we import more oil than ever before. You had 32 years to get it right and it is an abysmal FAILURE.
> >
You have FAILED in every "government service" you have shoved down our throats while overspending our tax dollars.
> >
AND YOU WANT AMERICANS TO BELIEVE YOU CAN BE TRUSTED WITH A GOVERNMENT-RUN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM??
Just Imagine this for the next 6-9 years. What a ride it will be 🙂 (PS, Zero should charge for this)
UserPostedImage
Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago

But those that lax on their responsibility pass the cost burden onto those that can pay for it.. not direct but indirectly via increases in patient costs.

"pack93z" wrote:



That is absolutely correct. Just as people who commit auto-insurance or homeowners-insurance fraud drive up the premiums for everyone else too.

So by your definition above.. the government should impose legislation to prevent harm to the other paying patients of the health care model.. correct?

"pack93z" wrote:



We don't need laws for every conceivable contingency. Just as we don't need hate-crime laws for criminal assault, neither do we need specific laws for failure to pay for healthcare. Healthcare fraud can be prosecuted under laws that have been on the books for decades, whether as fraud or theft. The problem is that currently, failure to pay is not a criminal offense but a civil one. So while the healthcare provider could get a civil judgment against the person, they may very well not be able to collect. I would have no problem with deadbeats and fraudsters being forced to work at slave wages for hospitals to pay off their debts. Obviously, such a system would not preclude hospitals from offering charity care to people who through no fault of their own, could not afford to pay. But even the poorest person, for the sake of his dignity and self respect, can be put on a payment plan, even if it's only $10 over the course of a year or two, just so they don't have to take services "for free."

So now tell me.. if you are opposed to the current health care reform would you be open to the government stepping in and initiating your ideas?

"pack93z" wrote:



There would be very little stepping in and initiating required, just a little revamping of already existing criminal and civil codes. Obama's plan takes away the right of an adult to choose whether or not he wants comprehensive versus catastrophic insurance, much less whether he wants insurance at all. My plan increases the freedom of choice -- even to allowing healthcare providers discretion as to which clients they accept. It's getting the government out of the interaction between customer and provider, not getting in intimately involved in that relationship.

Remember, you have argued that it isn't the governments place to place these restrictions upon you.. so whom pushes your ideas?

"pack93z" wrote:



My idea reduces restrictions, not increases them. It mandates personal responsibility, doesn't force compliance. It's a simple concept, really: If you can't afford to pay the doctor for that sniffle or backache, you don't go in to his office, any more than you'd go steal an OTC medication from the pharmacy if you can't pay for it.

So of course I would not be opposed to the government implementing these ideas, because they are two ENTIRELY different situations. In one case (Obama's plan), I am being forced to pay for my insurance, whether I want or even need it; I am being deprived of my ability to exercise my power of choice. I am also being forced to pay for the millions of people who will not be able to afford insurance (many by choice) and thus will be relying on federally subsidized insurance. Under the plan I am proposing, freedom of choice is preserved. It's a promotion of liberty, of choice, of adult discretion, not of government-dictated planning.
UserPostedImage
Pack93z
14 years ago
* double post somehow...interesting..
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Pack93z
14 years ago



Of course I would not be opposed to the government implementing these ideas, because they are two ENTIRELY different situations. In one case (Obama's plan), I am being forced to pay for my insurance, whether I want or neven nit and for the millions who will not be a ble to afford insurance and thus will be t subsidized insurance. Under the plan I am proposing, none of us has to pay for that. It's a promotion of liberty, of choice, not of government-dictated planning.

"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:



But don't you see.. those people in your plan have to pay as well.. some with their life because they can't afford insurance or can't afford to pay their bills because of the high cost associated with the service?

In fact you are limiting a greater number of peoples choice to seek health care when they need it.. you speak in another thread about the justice system setting 10 guilty free to prevent 1 innocent being jailed.. yet you want the doctors to determine before treatment if someone should receive it?

Or people with a BMI outside of your proposal shouldn't get treatment or reasonable care? You make a global statement that the only reason a person is heavy is because of poor lifestyle choices... which is definitely not the case. They wouldn't pay because of your plan.

So I understand this correctly.. you oppose this plan implemented by government... all the while arguing the case that it is unconstitutional. yet if they implement your plan which would "cost" a different category of people that would be okay... correct?
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago

Perfect for this area lol

1. Americans spend $36,000,000 at Wal-Mart Every hour of every day.
> >
2. This works out to $20,928 profit every minute!
> >
3. Wal-Mart will sell more from January 1 to St. Patrick's Day (March 17th) than
> > Target sells all year.
> >
4. Wal-Mart is bigger than Home Depot + Kroger + Target + Sears + Costco + K-Mart combined.
> >
5. Wal-Mart employs 1.6 million people and is the largest private Employer, and most speak English.
> >
6. Wal-Mart is the largest company in the history of the World.
> >
7. Wal-Mart now sells more food than Kroger & Safeway combined, and keep in mind they did this in only 15 years.
> >
8. During this same period, 31 supermarket chains sought bankruptcy.
> >
9. Wal-Mart now sells more food than any other store in the world.
> >
10. Wal-Mart has approx 3,900 stores in the USA of which 1,906 are Super Centers; this is 1,000 more than it had 5 Years ago.
> >
11. This year 7.2 billion different purchasing experiences will occur At a Wal-Mart store. (Earth's population is approximately 6.5 Billion.)
> >
12. 90% of all Americans live within 15 miles of a Wal-Mart.
> >
You may think that I am complaining, but I am really laying the ground work for suggesting that MAYBE we should hire the guys who run Wal-Mart to Fix the economy.
>
This should be read and understood by all Americans
> >
Democrats,
Republicans,
EVERYONE!! > >
> > To President Obama and all 535 voting members of the Legislature,
> >
It is now official you are ALL corrupt morons:
> >
The U.S. Post Service was established in 1775. You have had 234 years to get it right and it is BROKE.
> >
Social Security was established in 1935. You have had 74 years to get it right and it is BROKE.
> >
Fannie Mae was established in 1938. You have had 71 years to get it right and it is BROKE.
> >
War on Poverty started in 1964. You have had 45 years to get it right; $ trillion of our money is confiscated each year and transferred to "the poor" and they only want more.
> >
Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965. You have had 44 years to get it right and they are BROKE.
> >
Freddie Mac was established in 1970. You have had 39 years to get it right and it is BROKE.
> >
The Department of Energy was created in 1977 to lessen our dependence on foreign oil. It has ballooned to 16,000 employees with a budget of $24 billion a year and we import more oil than ever before. You had 32 years to get it right and it is an abysmal FAILURE.
> >
You have FAILED in every "government service" you have shoved down our throats while overspending our tax dollars.
> >
AND YOU WANT AMERICANS TO BELIEVE YOU CAN BE TRUSTED WITH A GOVERNMENT-RUN HEALTH CARE SYSTEM??

"dhazer" wrote:



Thank you.
+1
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
digsthepack
14 years ago
Summed up very well dhazer! Anything govt. touches becomes bloated, expensive, and almost impossible to scale back/rescind once in place.

What has government EVER operated that worked well? Nothing.....
State Motto: "Wisconsin, our serial murderers eat their kill!"
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