Cheesey
  • Cheesey
  • Preferred Member Topic Starter
3 months ago
I have noticed with all the political ads, that the only thing the democrats are hanging their hats on is abortion.
Acting like how HORRIBLE the republicans are for trying to protect innocent unborn children. And as far as in the case of rape or incest, it should be okay to take the life of the child. How about we kill the rapist? Or the male that raped a relative?
While Wisconsin's current governor is letting violent offenders out on the street early.
I heard Evers say all the great things he is going to do if reelected. Uh, why didn't he do those things during the last four years? Why should anyone believe he's going to suddenly do good things?
To me, abortion shouldn't be used as contraception. Or out of convenience.
Honesty, if abortion was ONLY used in cases of rape or incest, you'd get rid of 99% of abortions. But abortion is big business. So that's a big reason why they want to keep it legal.
Just my opinion of course.
I know there are people here that will agree with me, but most likely won't speak up for fear of attack.
But to me, if you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
If you believe in the Bible, you know that God said that John the Baptist jumped for joy in his mother's belly when he heard Jesus was coming. God knew us while we were not yet born.

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Cheesey
  • Cheesey
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3 months ago
Here's another point to consider.
If a man pushes a pregnant woman down a flight of stairs, and she loses the unborn baby, why is the man charged with murder?
Yet if a woman chooses to kill the fetus, it's acceptable?
My point is, either unborn children are human babies, or they are not.
Who makes the "choice" shouldn't matter.
Either it's murder or it's not.
And if that is what your political side is the main thing they are using to try to sway voters, that seems mighty weak to me. There's a lot more wrong that should be targeted then that.

Ron Johnson (republican) has been attacked for making money with business with China. Yet JOE BIDEN gets a free pass for his and his son Hunter has received for their sketchy deals with China. Johnson has been on the up and up with his LEGAL
business dealings.
Again, my opinion.
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dfosterf
3 months ago
Abortion rights is possibly the most intractable moral issue we as a society face, and the price being paid with regards to who gets elected and what they do once elected is a tragedy for our nation, abortion rights being amongst the least of those consequences, imo The polarization between the powers in the parties is so great that any crack that can be utilized will be manipulated and exaggerated, spun, etc., largely dependent upon the polls that day, week month. There is a pretty big chasm on this issue, at least as expressed and/or manipulated. An abortion right may be morally repugnant to so many, but it might be a price to pay for living in an ostensibly free society. Brutal question, but for me, I remind myself that the job of God is taken.
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damn skippy I'm an owner. I currently own a full .000018 % of the Packers


Cheesey
  • Cheesey
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3 months ago
When unborn children are considered expendable, how much lower morally can this country go? Why do you think the crime rate has gotten so bad over the last 50 years? When human life itself has no value, how can they expect the moral compass of this country to go up? You are teaching people that you can do what you want (have as much sex with however many people as you want) with no consequences. Get pregnant? Just flush the child away! You don't have to raise the child. Kill it, and go onto the next "partner".
And we wonder why there are school shootings. All the "YOU are SPECIAL!" YOU MATTER crap they are teaching kids. How about "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Again, when killing babies doesn't matter, you can do expect these kinds of things.
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dfosterf
3 months ago
Honestly, Alan, we get it.
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damn skippy I'm an owner. I currently own a full .000018 % of the Packers


Zero2Cool
3 months ago
Originally Posted by: Cheesey 

Why do you think the crime rate has gotten so bad over the last 50 years?


I would suspect part of it is because kids are having kids and because both parents are expected to be working to make due. Therefore, we don't have mom raising the kids all day, they are instead at child care through age five. Studies have shown our personalities are all but developed by age five.

When you have people having kids who are too young to learn how to adult themselves, I suspect that would contribute to some people growing up without morals, accountability and respect for others as well as a lack of self-awareness.

Here are some numbers about crime rate.
https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm 
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Cheesey
  • Cheesey
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3 months ago
Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 

I would suspect part of it is because kids are having kids and because both parents are expected to be working to make due. Therefore, we don't have mom raising the kids all day, they are instead at child care through age five. Studies have shown our personalities are all but developed by age five.

When you have people having kids who are too young to learn how to adult themselves, I suspect that would contribute to some people growing up without morals, accountability and respect for others as well as a lack of self-awareness.

Here are some numbers about crime rate.
https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm 



I'm sure that's also part if the problem. 2 parent families are rare today. So add that with what I previously said is a recipe for disaster. My parents taught me to respect authority, and to be responsible for my actions.
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dfosterf
3 months ago
Major props for bringing your point of view, Alan. Major props to Kevin for letting the conversation flow. A lot of cowardice from most. I'm not going deep, but for some small examples... Does no one question why you cannot comment at all on CNN or MSNBC while concurrently calling FOX News "faux news" where you can? This raises no intellectual curiosity? There are a myriad of things we seem to take for granted as consumers of information I find bothersome. To me, it is all so profoundly leftist that when Alan opts to whip out his views, I find it courageous. And dhaze, go ahead and wear your cheesehead at your Trump rally, you nut! Lol
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damn skippy I'm an owner. I currently own a full .000018 % of the Packers


Cheesey
  • Cheesey
  • Preferred Member Topic Starter
3 months ago
Dave, thank you for the compliment!

I don't give me views to try to be a jerk. I do it because some people don't even think of some of these things. I know it opens me up to attack. These things are very important to me. So I put myself out there.
If it makes even one person think about it, then it's worth taking a chance at getting my toes stepped on.
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earthquake
3 months ago
Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 

I would suspect part of it is because kids are having kids and because both parents are expected to be working to make due. Therefore, we don't have mom raising the kids all day, they are instead at child care through age five. Studies have shown our personalities are all but developed by age five.

When you have people having kids who are too young to learn how to adult themselves, I suspect that would contribute to some people growing up without morals, accountability and respect for others as well as a lack of self-awareness.

Here are some numbers about crime rate.
https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm 



Kevin makes some great points here. Children who grow up in families who are ill-equipped to raise them are much more likely to be involved in crime.

When we look at the numbers, crime rates have halved since peaking in the early 1990s and are lower than they were in the 1970s.

You have to go back to the 1960s to see years in which per-capita crime rates were lower than they have been in the last 10 years. And 1960s crime figures are problematic because if you look at murders, they were committed at a similar rate compared to modern times, however, the rate of reported rape was much lower in the 60's. Are we becoming a society of crazed rapists? Most likely not, it's simply much more common for rapes to be reported, as well as domestic violence and other crimes against women that were historically underreported due to fear of retribution, stigmatization, etc. And in the last few years rapes against men have been included in the statistics, resulting in a notable jump in those figures.

https://law.stanford.edu/publications/the-impact-of-legalized-abortion-on-crime-over-the-last-two-decades/  - the summary:

Quote:


Donohue and Levitt (2001) presented evidence that the legalization of abortion in the early 1970s played an important role in the crime drop of the 1990s. That paper concluded with a strong out-of-sample prediction regarding the next two decades: “When a steady state is reached roughly twenty years from now, the impact of abortion will be roughly twice as great as the impact felt so far. Our results suggest that all else equal, legalized abortion will account for persistent declines of 1% a year in crime over the next two decades.” Estimating parallel specifications to the original paper, but using the seventeen years of data generated after that paper was written, we find strong support for the prediction and the broad hypothesis, while illuminating some previously unrecognized patterns of crime and arrests. We estimate that overall crime fell 17.5% from 1998 to 2014 due to legalized abortion— a decline of 1% per year. From 1991 to 2014, the violent and property crime rates each fell by 50%. Legalized abortion is estimated to have reduced violent crime by 47% and property crime by 33% over this period, and thus can explain most of the observed crime decline.



There are valid reasons to be against abortion but concerns over the rate of crime is not one of them. An outright ban on abortion would almost certainly result in increased rates of crime.



Here is my more general take on abortion:

It should be up to the woman, their family, and their doctor to assess the situation and make the decision.

In more extreme cases like incest and rape, requiring women to go through the trauma of not only being raped but carrying their rapist's baby to term and the life-long psychological side effects that will have on them is simply unconscionable in my view. Doubly so in cases involving children.

There are many cases where going through with a birth has a high likelihood of killing either or both the mother and child, and in these cases, it should be considered on an individual basis, and is not something an out-of-touch politician should be deciding.

In cases where there are bans on abortion, there need to be exceptions for rape, incest, and situations that pose a significant threat to the lives of mother and child.

This idea that abortion is used as a form of casual contraception is nothing more than a fantasy. Chances are someone you love has gone through an abortion and the very last thing it was was casual, easy, or poorly considered. In all likelihood, it was an extremely difficult and heart-wrenching decision to make.

At the end of the day, abortion is going to happen regardless of what the laws say so it should be performed by medical professionals and should be as safe as possible.
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Cheesey
  • Cheesey
  • Preferred Member Topic Starter
3 months ago
So.... because people are going to murder unborn children anyway, that's a reason to make it legal.
I guess we should make other crimes legal then, as people will commit them anyway.
And yes, there are millions of people that have multiple abortions as birth control.
So, because we have men and women that don't want any consequences for their actions, let's make it legal to kill the "problem".
And as I already stated, if abortion was ONLY in cases of rape or incest, that would end almost all abortions.
Why is it "health care" to kill a baby? What about the rights of the innocent unborn child?


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earthquake
3 months ago
Originally Posted by: Cheesey 

So.... because people are going to murder unborn children anyway, that's a reason to make it legal.



It's impossible to murder an unborn child. Being unborn, it is not yet a child. Until it is born, it is a fetus, before that an embryo, and before that an egg. Upon fertilization, the egg becomes an embryo. Around the 8th week, the embryo transforms into a fetus. It is not a child until it leaves the womb.

Exactly when an egg, embryo, or fetus is granted personhood status, ie: has rights as a person and could technically be murdered is a hotly debated and contentious matter, so I won't go too far down that rabbit hole.

In any case, the vast majority of abortions happen before the 13th week. Later abortions are rare and pre-overturning Roe vs Wade were often very difficult to get permission for and were/are banned outright in many states.

 image.png You have insufficient rights to see the content.

https://www.kff.org/womens-health-policy/fact-sheet/abortions-later-in-pregnancy/ 

Quote:

And yes, there are millions of people that have multiple abortions as birth control.



You'll have to provide a source for this as I could find nothing that backs up this claim. Abortion stats are a little tricky because there is no centralized resource. In any case, by the highest estimates, fewer than 1 million abortions were performed in 2020. This is down quite a bit from the peak of 1.6m in the 90s, and when accounting for population growth that equates to something like abortion rates halving over that period.

I haven't been able to find any statistics that define what "casual abortions" or "abortions as a contraceptive" are, so again, you'll have to both define those terms and cite your source for the data. To the best of my knowledge, reliable data does not exist that would prove or disprove this one.

 image.png You have insufficient rights to see the content.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/06/24/what-the-data-says-about-abortion-in-the-u-s-2/ft_2022-06-23_abortiondata_01/ 
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Cheesey
  • Cheesey
  • Preferred Member Topic Starter
3 months ago
So, the thousands of abortions every year are because of rapes and incest?
And calling a human a "fetus" doesn't change what it is, anymore then calling murder "homicide". It's the same thing.
And just because you CHOOSE not to accept that a living baby still in the womb is not a person, doesn't mean it's not a person.
Have you ever seen an abortion?
The film "Seeing is believing" shows what it really is. Seeing a "fetus" in the womb trying to avoid a "doctors" needle because of the pain it is enduring. Seeing the little arms and legs suctioned out and thrown away like garbage .
Calling it a nice little term doesn't change what it really is. Murder
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