Discussion Board
dfosterf
2009-06-07T18:16:08Z
Someone posted pre-draft that they were sick and tired of hearing about the 4-3 vs. the 3-4. I made a promise to basically STFU about it if we got Raji over Crabtree. This post is in full compliance.

FYI--- Capers calls our two ILBs mack (weakside---Barnett will play) and Buck (strongside spot). There is also a Nickel in certain packages, which is primarily a cover guy, and Barnett will play that as well.

Some more numbers:
(Differing defenses we just might see this year, whether we know it or not)

I didnt put up the nickel or dime, most know those.

LINK 


4-4

Quote:


The 4-4 defense is based around speed, athleticism and intelligence rather than relying too heavily on size and strength as many other defenses do. Versatility is a key as every player can have a variety of roles from one play to the next. It is an attacking defense stocked with multiple blitz packages that can be easily concealed and altered. The top priority of the 4-4 defense is stopping the run and with 8 men in the box (around the line of scrimmage) on every snap, it puts a defense in a very good position to do just that. In addition, with 8 men in the box, it is difficult for the offense to pin point exactly where the pressure will be coming from when the defense blitzes. One final significant advantage of the 4-4 defense is that it can easily adjust to the offense. The 4-4 can shift into a nickel or dime coverage simply and effectively.
The major drawback to the 4-4 defense is the potential to give up the big play, both through the air and on the ground. Shifty scat backs with breakaway speed are most successful against the 4-4. If they can cut their way through the layer of linebackers, they will likely only have 1, maybe 2 men to beat in the secondary and depending on their coverage assignments; they may not even be in position to make a tackle anyway. The other way the defense is exposed is on the deep pass. The cornerbacks are often left on an island (without help from the Safeties), either in man coverage or playing in a 3 deep zone. If a speedy receiver gets past his defender, there likely is nothing between him and the end zone. The hope, however, is that even if a receiver opens up deep, the quarterback wont have time to deliver the ball because of the pressure.
Defensive Tackles
While size is definitely a plus for defensive tackles in the 4-4, its not as important as quickness and the ability to use leverage to manipulate the offensive linemen. It's imperative for the defensive tackles to hold their ground. They cannot allow themselves to get turned around and under no circumstances can they allow themselves to be base blocked, one on one. Again, size is great and certainly helps, but a smaller tackle can be just as effective if he is a good technician. In the base 4-4, the defensive tackles will generally line up in the B gap in a 3 technique (outside eye of the guard). Depending on the read, the defensive tackle will either be asked to penetrate the line of scrimmage, or hold his ground and attempt to take on both the guard and offensive tackle.
Defensive Ends
The defensive end's primary role in the 4-4 defense is to get to the quarterback as fast as possible. They need to be strong enough to fight their way past offensive tackles; but they also need to be athletic enough to act as linebackers because there are plenty of scenarios in the 4-4 defense that require the defensive ends to drop into coverage, just as an outside linebacker would do. The ends should do whatever they can to get to the quarterback and on running plays they should pursue down the line of scrimmage, but be careful not to over-commit as they need to be ready for a potential cutback.
Inside Linebackers
There are two inside linebackers in the 4-4 scheme known as the Mike and Buck linebackers. While they both play inside, Buck will shade to the strong side of the offense, Mike shades to the weak side. It is important for these inside backers to be aggressive and have a nose for the ball. As in most defenses, the Mike backer acts as the quarterback of the defense and is often the defensive leader. The primary responsibility of both Mike and Buck is to stop the run. The Buck backer will generally be more active in pass coverage than the Mike. Because of this, the Buck backer needs to be athletic enough to drop and almost play like a strong safety.
Outside Linebackers
As there are two inside linebackers, there are also two outside linebackers. These outside backers are known as Sam and Rover. The Sam linebacker typically sticks to the strong side. Sam does his fair share of blitzing, however he also needs to play the run and will usually be relied upon to cover the tight end or potentially a back out of the backfield. Rover will generally play on the weak side, however he can be moved to just about anywhere to better suit the defensive call or adjustment. The rover is probably the single most versatile position in the 4-4 defense. Depending on the call and the personnel in place, the Rovers job could be purely to get after the quarterback or to drop into coverage. In a blitzing situation, the Rover is the most likely player to get to the quarterback. The Rover position can be played by a variety of athletic types ranging from an outside linebacker, to a strong safety. The "Rover" linebacker is sometimes also known as the "Willie" position (Sam comes from strong side linebacker, and thus Willie signifies the weak side backer).
Secondary
The cornerbacks are often on islands in man coverage or in a deep zone, and they need to possess exceptional speed and change of direction skills. They also need to be intelligent when diagnosing the play and when in zone coverage, must be able to play the ball. The corners will generally line up 3 to 5 yards off the ball, but will rarely jam because of the risk of a big play. If the corner jams and the receiver is able to get past him, it has a high probability of ending up a big play for the offense. Of course it helps to have corners that can assist in run support, however, their primary responsibility is to shut down any receiving threat they are assigned to. The safety in the 4-4 defense should be one of the teams better athletes. He needs to be fast enough to play in coverage and strong enough to help against the run. He needs to have a nose for the ball and be able to diagnose the play to put himself in a position to make a play. The safety will almost always be assigned to the deep middle of the field, however he can also be blitzed in various packages.




5-2

Quote:

A 5-2 defense is a defense with 5 defensive linemen and 2 linebackers. The defensive linemen almost always line up to the weak side, with the backside lineman on the outside shoulder of the end man on the offensive LOS.
Because the extra defensive lineman makes this a strong defense against the run, it is more popular in leagues (or specific situations) that favor the running game. Thus, this defense is most often used in middle school and little league, and occasionally in different looks and variations in the NFL or college. The 5-2 used to be more popular in college football, when the running game was much more prevalent; for example, teams in the 1980s would often employ the 5-2 to combat the extremely run-oriented offenses of the time. From the mid-1950s until the early 1990s, the 5-2 was the base formation for most teams in the Big Eight Conference, due to the powerful rushing attacks of the Nebraska Cornhuskers and Oklahoma Sooners, and later in the 1980s, the Colorado Buffaloes. Currently, the Arizona Cardinals use this defense regularly, in addition to their base 4-3.
The benefit of having a 5-2 is that it adds size to your defense by replacing a linebacker with a defensive lineman. This helps in short-yardage situations where you want to stall the line of scrimmage and not give up the inside run. The disadvantage is in pass coverage -- most 5-2 teams will rush all 5 defensive linemen leaving only 6 pass defenders. In some circumstances a 5-2 team will drop one of the linemen, typically an end, off into coverage. But this is primarily a situational defense, and not often used in situations where downfield pass coverage is a significant concern.



3-3-5

Quote:

The 3-3-5 alignment, sometimes known as the "Mustang" or "30-Stack," typically relies on 3 down linemen, 3 linebackers, and 5 defensive backs: 1 free safety, 2 cornerbacks playing off the line, and 2 roving safeties that move around. The safeties take on 2nd receivers or tight ends and have to be able to come up and make tackles, usually outside the box. Generally, when running a 3-3-5 the user is trying to confuse the offense by "exchanging" different pressures in the A, B, and C gaps using the lineman, linebackers, rovers, and free safety while playing mostly zone or sometimes man coverage behind. Teams that run the 3-3-5 generally use it because they are a fast but sometimes smaller unit who wants to cause assignment issues for the opposing offense. Also, a 3-3-5 can be adjusted based on formation to a 4-3, 3-4, 4-4, Goal Line, etc. with the same starting players.
To effectively play the 3-3-5 the "Front 8," especially the lineman and linebackers must be physical, stout, and tough. The lineman must be able to control their assigned gaps, get an effective pass rush, and take out double teams to free up the linebackers to make plays. The 2 outside or "Stud" linebackers must be effective at pressuring, reading and reacting to the play, and play at a low pad level as they will be taking on lineman and fullbacks while the "Mike" must be intelligent in lining up the defense in a counter to the offense's formation as well as flowing to the ball and being able to shed blockers and make plays. The rovers or "Drillers" must be capable of pressuring, dropping back in coverage, being physical, taking on lineman, keeping contain, and coming up and making plays. The cornerbacks must be good in coverage and be physical tacklers. And finally, the free safety is the most versatile athlete on the field as on any given play he can drop in coverage, pressure the quarterback or play one of the "Mike" backers in the 3-4. In addition to this the free safety must be a physical tackler and hitter and generally your best playmaker and smartest athlete.



...and, in case you haven't got enough numbers yet,

The 5-2-4

Quote:

The 5-2-4 formation is a variation of the 46 defense and the 3-3-5, often called "Bear Down". Takes away plays from the out side in. A linebacker and a safety come down on the outside sides. the tackles line up in the C gap, they both read the last man on their side of the line of scrimmage. Depending on that offensive players move (inside or outside) determines the defensive players role, if the outside man is getting kicked out he has outside containment and the DE comes down the line. If the outside man is let free then he comes down the line and the DE fights to get outside containment. It makes for two down the line of scrimmage players two outside contain guys and three inside players. Bear is also man coverage.




There will be no quiz, but at least when all those numbers get bandied about, perhaps you will be able to remember a little of it, or at least remember having read about it. I hope this was somewhat informative, but admit it is a bit much...probably should have done them individually or something. I'm number out, now. :icon_smile:
Rockmolder
2009-06-07T18:53:44Z
Those are some pretty interesting formations. I'm not that big a fan of formations like the 46, or the 5-2-4, which, as the article says, is a variation of it. I do really like formations where you add speed to the defense. Not on every down, obviously, but something like the 3-3-5 on obvious passing downs is very interesting.

Also, that 4-4 defense look pretty cool. We have the corners for it and need some help in stopping the run. I could imagine that it'd be more of a slide in formation than in personal for us though, as I could see Bigby play the 'Rover' position in that one.

One formation that isn't mentioned, but that I really like is this one.

Link 

Quote:

That's why most people aren't surprised to see the Patriots break out new formations from time to time. One of their most interesting ones on defense is the 1-5-5, which places just one player on the line of scrimmage in a defensive 3-point stance. Behind that one lineman is usually 5 linebackers with perhaps some defensive ends mixed in, and then 5 defensive backs round out the formation on the back end.

This formation is not reliable enough to use on a consistent basis but is great to throw the opponent off and is excellent on obvious passing downs when the plays are executed correctly. Each linebacker is spread out evenly and has a place just over each gap between the offensive linemen, so they have an excellent angle to get past the line. Because they are standing up, it is easy to get a good jump and get momentum from running full speed in order to beat the offensive linemen with speed. This formation also forces the normally slow offensive guards who don't play well in space to move a little more than they are accustomed to and to go against a quicker man that they are used to, since they normally guard a defense tackle.

Because of the 5 defensive backs in the backfield, any mistakes are covered up quite well with the overall speed of this defense on a pass, and the back five don't have to cover very long in most cases due to the pressure generated.



I can imagine it now.

                                                Nick Collins
             Charles Woodson                                               Atari Bigby

Tramon Williams                                                                    Al Harris
                                              Nick Barnett
 
                             AJ Hawk                         Clay Matthews
           Jeremy Thompson                                           Aaron Kampman
                                                BJ Raji


Or at least, something like that. Slide Clay Matthews over and what not, but you get what I mean.

Big thing here is, though, that we could do the 3-4, 4-3 and 4-4 without subbing out one single player. The 3-4 is base, for the 4-3 Kampman goes to DE and in the 4-4 Bigby just gets in the box. This depends on who will start, though. Matthews or Thompson. If Thompson will start, we might have to sub him out for a 4-3 or sub Pickett out and slide Jenkins inside on passing downs.

We have a really versatile defense. It ought to be fun to see them play.

Great topic btw, Dave. +1
Nonstopdrivel
2009-06-07T19:38:43Z
So let me get this straight. The offense has to have 7 men on the line of scrimmage, but the defense doesn't? Is the defense required to have any men on the line of scrimmage? In other words, could a defense drop everyone into coverage and concede the line?
beast
2009-06-07T20:27:05Z
I think I'd like this... 2-6-3

You could do so many different things out of formation as long as Chillar and Matthews can cover well enough which I think they could and the other LBers are physical enough which I would think they would be.



                                                    Collins


                  Matthews                                                          Chillar
Woodson                                   Barnett               Hawk                               Harris
                             Thompson                                    Kampman

                                           Pickett            Raji



If they bring in another WR take out Chillar or Matthews and put in Williams

Also Matthews and Chillar could be taken over for Bigby and Rouse but I like Matthews and Chillar more.
dfosterf
2009-06-07T20:48:39Z
What I find especially intriguing is the concept of a 4-4 with our existing personnel...ESPECIALLY if our LB's are practicing a 3-4 on a daily basis.

One of the things that is a REAL strength of this defense was the play of our DB's...amazingly so when we consider the poor pass pressure.

I just went back and re-read the vulnerabilities associated with the 4-4, and I have to say that from what I have seen, if anyone should be able to run it...It would be us, at least against the pass...scat back problems, well, not so much.

All in all, the versatility, the practice, the personnel decisions being made...a transition to this 3-4 carries some options that perhaps were not even considered on first blush.

Recommended reading...re-read the 4-4 as described in this thread after reading this post...

See what I'm sayin' ? :thumbleft:
mi_keys
2009-06-07T21:06:11Z
"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:

So let me get this straight. The offense has to have 7 men on the line of scrimmage, but the defense doesn't? Is the defense required to have any men on the line of scrimmage? In other words, could a defense drop everyone into coverage and concede the line?



To my knowledge a defense can line up with as few on the line as they want. They could come out and line up with 11 DBs lined up 15 yards off the line of scrimmage if they felt like it.

Also, to the 2-6-3 idea I agree you could have some interesting coverage and blitz looks but it would probably be extremely vulnerable against the run.
Nonstopdrivel
2009-06-07T21:14:16Z
"mi_keys" wrote:

To my knowledge a defense can line up with as few on the line as they want. They could come out and line up with 11 DBs lined up 15 yards off the line of scrimmage if they felt like it.



Thanks for this explanation! Every so often I run up against a subtlety about the game I hadn't grasped before, so I appreciate your clarifying this point for me.
zombieslayer
2009-06-08T00:15:53Z
"dfosterf" wrote:


One of the things that is a REAL strength of this defense was the play of our DB's...amazingly so when we consider the poor pass pressure.



Our DBs were simply amazing. Hats off to them.

Had they not been so spectacular in '08, we would have done a lot worse than 6-10.

If our DBs have a similar year in '09 and we actually can generate a pass rush, I sincerely think we can have a top 10 D (which should easily give us a winning record with as good as an O as we have).
mi_keys
2009-06-08T02:25:06Z
"Nonstopdrivel" wrote:

"mi_keys" wrote:

To my knowledge a defense can line up with as few on the line as they want. They could come out and line up with 11 DBs lined up 15 yards off the line of scrimmage if they felt like it.



Thanks for this explanation! Every so often I run up against a subtlety about the game I hadn't grasped before, so I appreciate your clarifying this point for me.



No problem.

Thought I'd go back and get the list of rules and as I thought there's nothing about the defense needing x amount on the line of scrimmage.

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/positionofplayers 
Blank402
2009-06-08T03:47:36Z
In an article after OTA's this week they mentioned that we ran a 2-4-5 in nickel situations. I think that's an interesting formation to run, since we can still bring a four man rush, but we confuse the offense by mixing up which of our LBs we rush.

Quote:


When the defense went to its nickel package, Raji and Johnny Jolly were the two in the middle up front, with a fifth defensive back replacing the third lineman.



http://www.packers.com/news/stories/2009/05/28/4/ 
evad04
2009-06-08T09:11:00Z
Bellicheck and the Patriots were the first to use the 1-5-5 sets, if I'm not mistaken. If you have versatile enough LBs (in the sense of being able to pass rush, shed blocks, pass cover, and tackle adequately) then this can be a fun little nickel defense. Those five LBs could go anywhere after the snap. Put it this way: it was invented to stop Peyton Manning.

That said, I don't know if we'll run it. We did run a 2-4-5 last season a few times (again, unless I'm mistaken).
beast
2009-06-08T16:25:55Z
"evad04" wrote:

Bellicheck and the Patriots were the first to use the 1-5-5 sets, if I'm not mistaken. If you have versatile enough LBs (in the sense of being able to pass rush, shed blocks, pass cover, and tackle adequately) then this can be a fun little nickel defense. Those five LBs could go anywhere after the snap. Put it this way: it was invented to stop Peyton Manning.



I want to get as many LBers on the field as smartly possible. They seem to be pretty deep. I mean

Kampman, Poppinga and Bishop are all very good against the run.
Barnett, Chillar and Matthews are all very good against the pass.
Hawk and Thompson are very well rounded.
Rockmolder
2010-06-14T08:04:06Z
When I found this thread, I couldn't help but read through it again. It might be posted a year ago, but it's still quite a thread. Let's see how these formations look now to the new members we got and the new guys we got on defense.

It's so basic and deep at the same time.
Nonstopdrivel
2010-06-14T08:58:13Z
Quote:

Offensive linemen are permitted to interlock legs.



Interesting. I don't know if I've ever seen such a formation before. Seems kind of risky for the linemen's knees if you ask me.
beast
2010-06-15T03:31:18Z
I wonder how a Dime set with the ILB being replaced with SS would do...
the coverage should be better... if they could stop the run just as well maybe they could do it?



  

                           Collins                                            Blackmon


                               Matthews         Burnett    BigBy         Jones
    Williams                                                                                    Woodson
                                             Jenkins    Raji    Pickett 
djcubez
2010-06-15T07:19:09Z
"beast" wrote:

I wonder how a Dime set with the ILB being replaced with SS would do...
the coverage should be better... if they could stop the run just as well maybe they could do it?



  

                           Collins                                            Blackmon


                               Matthews         Burnett    BigBy         Jones
    Williams                                                                                    Woodson
                                             Jenkins    Raji    Pickett 


Both ILB being safetys? Hell no. Over half our players would be DB's. If they ran it, we'd be so prone to giving up the big play. RB's would probably break at least one tackle on every play against this formation lol. I wouldn't mind maybe seeing the same thing but with Burnett swapping the U for an A and Nick stepping in there. Creeping an extra safety into the box could offer a speedier blitzer or an ability to adjust and help out the passing game.
Porforis
2010-06-15T13:10:50Z
Smokey
2016-08-26T02:12:58Z
This thread needs an update . Who is this forum's resident Professor/Coach/Guru ?


[cheers]
Smokey
2017-06-25T14:26:40Z
Originally Posted by: Smokey 

This thread needs an update . Who is this forum's resident Professor/Coach/Guru ?


[cheers]



Oh Beast , this thread needs to hear from you Mr. Know-it all . Dazzle us with the advantages of the 4-2 Defense !

 bjm 12121.jpg You have insufficient rights to see the content.

beast
2017-07-01T23:20:20Z
Originally Posted by: Smokey 

This thread needs an update . Who is this forum's resident Professor/Coach/Guru ?

Originally Posted by: Smokey 

Oh Beast , this thread needs to hear from you Mr. Know-it all . Dazzle us with the advantages of the 4-2 Defense !

So you're admitting that I'm your Guru? 😱

My point is simply that all the NFL teams are getting away from BOTH the 3-4 and the 4-3, and they're all playing some form of 4-2 nickel defense about 50% of the time.

The advantages are pretty clear...

  • Another DB on the field for better coverage as offenses have gone to a lot more 3 WR sets and/or athletic TEs that are more like WRs than the traditional TEs
  • To go along with maximizing the number of pass rushers on the field, as their is two edge rushers and a 3 tech pass rushing DT.
  • Speed... as the extra DB is faster than who they're replacing and those pass rushers are normally faster than the run defenders


[cheers]
Rockmolder
2018-01-11T21:38:39Z
Very interesting to see how Pettine lines our guys up. He's used all kinds of formations, but the keywords to describe most of them are aggresiveness and versatility. Since we've been drafting CB/S, LB/S and DE/DT(OLB) hybrids left and right and have been in prevent-like defenses a bit too much for my liking, I'm liking what I see.

Anyway, more on topic, two interesting articles regarding formations and how he deviated from the standard 3-4/4-3 on a regular basis.

Defining Mike Pettine's Bills defense: a philosophical endeavor 

Buffalo Bills, Mike Pettine defensive scheme: defining versatility 

I especialy like this little snippet.

Quote:

One other quick note: that 1-4-6 dime didn't have a defender more than eight yards behind the line of scrimmage; it's an extremely aggressive alignment. When did the Jets employ it? As Brady and the Pats were trying to march down the field for a game-tying field goal late in the fourth quarter. Brady got the job done, but Pettine certainly wasn't in prevent mode.



That psycho package Capers ran always intrigued me. Now, I very much doubt we have the personel to pull that 1-4-6 off effectively, but I do like a package like that. I can imagine we wouldn't want to take off a guy like Daniels, but you do want a big guy like Kenny Clark to play that NT role and eat two blocks.

Maybe something like a 2-3-6, with Clark playing a 1 technique and Daniels playing 3 technique, creating more of a traditional 4-3 centre with LBs and safeties able to come from just about anywhere.

Can't wait to see what Pettine will serve up.
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