VinceLambeauStarr
14 years ago
With the recent spurt of language based posts, requests and attacks (this hopelessly being another, thread/post that is, not an attack), i'd like to tell you all about something I have been thinking.

My thought is

"Initial content exposure on the internet is a primary reason for txt spk"

My brother is a gramatically sound guy, his vocation deems it mandatory that he present his written English in a correct manner. However, his emails and sms messages to me are littered with half-assed words inclusive of u, 2, txt etc.

The same for my girlfriend, but not for my father, who is 47.

I asked him about it when we were speaking on the phone today, and his response was "I don't know, iv'e always typed on the net that way".

Which is very true. Our first exposure to the internet was when it was just becoming mainstream - some of the things we were first enamored with were MSN and chat rooms, where the advent of something new created a wealth of new abbreviations (BRB), shortened words and phrases. Without thinking about it, the net talk stuck.

I grew out of "social networking" pretty early, and thus, without thinking about it, ceased to use net speak whenever I would use written word online. My brother however, remained consistent with his AIM/AOL usage.

The same for my girlfriend.

When the comparison is made between work related emails, and my brothers/girlfriends emails to me, I concluded (maybe prematurely) that none of it is given much thought. As a rule of habit and neccessity, they compose gramatically correct emails and type as they do online in more informal situations.

My father has never used AIM/MSN etc. - and he maintains pinpoint accuracy with his correspondence to me.

- - - - - - -

I have noticed something in our Dulak's posts, they seldom use punctuation, but when he writes about something serious (there have been two occasions where I have seen this), there is a major, visible difference in his writing style.

- - - - - - -

If the majority of my brothers internet usage was, say, on this forum, I pretty much guarantee he would not have used text speak, because typing correctly is very much a part of his default repetoire.

What do you guys think? I have tailored my opinion because of personal experience, if you guys think about it, is there anyone you know that has the same contrast in styles?

The one thing I do know is that laziness has nothing at all to do with it (Brother, Girlfriend), nor is any thought given to the comfort level of the reader - as txt speak in their online circle has always been accepted.
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Porforis
14 years ago
The only thing I have to add here is that Firefox's auto-spellcheck that gives you the annoying red lines underneath misspelled words has been terrible for my spelling. I get used to not thinking about how words are spelled before typing them, then when I'm typing in a chat program or other app without spellcheck I just misspell them without noticing.

That being said, I've never been huge on grammar. Proper punctuation, spelling, and capitalization is all I'm really anal about. I could care less about prepositions and shit. Basic acronyms like lol, rotfl, brb, etc are fine, but when people start making crazy shit up like "lbyttl2m" or intentionally misspell words... In the immortal words of Linkara: "...Because poor literacy is KEWL!!"
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago
I've been grading student writing for 20-odd years (and they've been odd years indeed" -- Groucho Marx). I no longer correct "grammar".

I still use lots of ink, but now I correct "diction" (or word and punctuation choice) instead.

Because the italicized word is critical. It's not about the rules. It's about which choices work and which do not.

It's like gratuitous use of Anglo-Saxon swear words. Chosen well, the expletive can be quite powerful. (As in the occasional, though it states the obvious, "Wade is a fuck head." Or variations on the rolling donut metaphor.) But when the word appears to be over 1% of the user's vocabulary, it just becomes, well, a pile of fucking shit.

As for Internet/twitter abbreviations ...it reminds me of what I used to call T.S. Elioting. People showing off they have bigger vocab or "cool" than their audience -- like, ahem, dropping the name of T.S. Eliot into a post on a sports board.

If all one is interested in is showing off, that is one use of language, for which the diction choice can be much, much broader. On the other hand, if one's goal is conversation, dialogue, or just having someone listen to you pontificate/rant, then diction choice becomes much more constrained.

Because you can't make people listen to your ideas. You can only put them in forms more or less likely to be paid attention to.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
zombieslayer
14 years ago
Well said, Wade. When people swear too much, I tend to stop reading what they're saying because it's annoying.

But well-timed swear words can be powerful.

Bad spelling, punctuation, and grammar can cause me to skip to the next writer. If the writing is short, I can tolerate bad spelling, punctuation, or grammar. If it's a long rant, I can't get through it.

If this offends anyone, don't let it offend you. I'm being realistic as a reader. Keep in mind that if you want people to read you, you have to write for an audience.

Spell check is your friend. My spelling isn't the best so I just look for underlined red when I type.
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Nonstopdrivel
14 years ago
I agree with both of you more or less. People are certainly free to write as poorly as they please. But they shouldn't take offense if I choose not to waste time deciphering their scribblings. In my opinion, by not taking the time to make it understandable, they're subliminally telling me that they don't actually care that much about what they have to say. So I simply pass on.

I'm an extremely fast reader. I can read an entire page on this forum in about 30 to 43 seconds -- while remembering what was written and by whom. If one of the posts causes me to slow down, I simply skip it. I consider my time valuable and I want to maximize my use of it.
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djcubez
14 years ago

I've been grading student writing for 20-odd years (and they've been odd years indeed" -- Groucho Marx). I no longer correct "grammar".

I still use lots of ink, but now I correct "diction" (or word and punctuation choice) instead.

Because the italicized word is critical. It's not about the rules. It's about which choices work and which do not.

It's like gratuitous use of Anglo-Saxon swear words. Chosen well, the expletive can be quite powerful. (As in the occasional, though it states the obvious, "Wade is a fuck head." Or variations on the rolling donut metaphor.) But when the word appears to be over 1% of the user's vocabulary, it just becomes, well, a pile of fucking shit.

As for Internet/twitter abbreviations ...it reminds me of what I used to call T.S. Elioting. People showing off they have bigger vocab or "cool" than their audience -- like, ahem, dropping the name of T.S. Eliot into a post on a sports board.

If all one is interested in is showing off, that is one use of language, for which the diction choice can be much, much broader. On the other hand, if one's goal is conversation, dialogue, or just having someone listen to you pontificate/rant, then diction choice becomes much more constrained.

Because you can't make people listen to your ideas. You can only put them in forms more or less likely to be paid attention to.

"Wade" wrote:



I hope you at least correct basic grammar :)

I've always been a decent speller. For some reason the way words form in my brain helps me understand spelling. I don't know any of the English rules I learned about grammar or spelling I just kind of have a feel for it. Grammar though has never been a strong suit of mine and is more akin to a "Wasteland." (HAH)

I used AIM a lot in the latter middle school years and high school but for some reason I rarely remember using "net speak." I always feel good when I write well so I try my best although most the time my writing is just a bunch of prattling and ranting. The only time I ever substitute a "u" for a "you" is in a long text message where I can't fit everything into the 160 word max or when I have to fire a message quickly.

As far as reading posts with bad grammar? As long as it's both legible and discernible I'm fine. In fact I find them kind of funny sometimes, especially the foreigners. I also don't like to give people shit for bad spelling because I had a friend who was absolutely awful at it.

My problem tends to be that I don't proofread. My mind often thinks farther ahead then where I'm typing and I'll skip words or even substitute other words in. I've type "way" instead of "where" and "for" instead of "from" plenty of times. In fact I guarantee I've already done it in this post somewhere and you'll see a little "edit" at the bottom later ;)

I hate writing but I tend to be decent at it. In my whole academic career I've never gotten a grade on a paper lower than a B. Maybe I've had easy teachers and I really do suck at writing but I still take a small shot of pride in knowing this.
14 years ago
seriously, guys? language? who cares about language? i couldn't care less about grammar and spelling never bothered me. what bothers me is the color "teal". shucks, that's about the only thing what bothers me these days.

teal.

who invented teal? really now. who was the smart-guy responsible for teal? hey smart-guy! yeah, you! you realize i wouldn't have nothin' to complain about if it weren't for you?

geez. why does this topic even madder? are collective grammar doesn't mean nothing. i mean, come on. the fall (bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonnerronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthurnuk!) of a once wallstrait oldparr is retaled early in bed and later on life down through all christian minstrelsy. you know what i mean? am i making a point? is teal still a color. should i be banned from Packershome.com? who killed Laura Palmer? How many drinks have i consumed whilst watching the Jersey Rats lose? HA! the Jersey Rats lost! HA! they looked pitiable. did you see it? did you see the look on my face as I saw it? HA!

I agree with Twinkiegorilla.

bozz_2006 wrote:


djcubez
14 years ago

seriously, guys? language? who cares about language? i couldn't care less about grammar and spelling never bothered me. what bothers me is the color "teal". shucks, that's about the only thing what bothers me these days.

teal.

who invented teal? really now. who was the smart-guy responsible for teal? hey smart-guy! yeah, you! you realize i wouldn't have nothin' to complain about if it weren't for you?

geez. why does this topic even madder? are collective grammar doesn't mean nothing. i mean, come on. the fall (bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonnerronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthurnuk!) of a once wallstrait oldparr is retaled early in bed and later on life down through all christian minstrelsy. you know what i mean? am i making a point? is teal still a color. should i be banned from Packershome.com? who killed Laura Palmer? How many drinks have i consumed whilst watching the Jersey Rats lose? HA! the Jersey Rats lost! HA! they looked pitiable. did you see it? did you see the look on my face as I saw it? HA!

"TwinkieGorilla" wrote:



Teal was made by a man that couldn't decide whether he liked blue better or green better. In the end he mixed the right amount of them together so you couldn't "teal" the difference.
TheEngineer
14 years ago
I grew up smack bang in the centre of 1337/AOL speak, (being an impressionable teenage gamer during which time EVERYONE was writing like that,) which I would presume is the precursor to the current sms/txt speak. It's strange, because I have no difficulty reading or writing in it (perhaps my skills have waned a bit since then) although I hardly ever do. Heck, my mother uses more shorthand while SMSing me than I do.

It's a conscious choice for me to write proper English. Not only because in my line of work, one must (there, ya happy non?) carry him/herself with a certain level of professionalism through written communication. It also brings authority to what you have to say. If I wanted to be lighthearted I would introduce some internet slang. If I have something to say that I've thought about and want to contribute meaningfully, I would type it out properly.
blank
Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
14 years ago


I hope you at least correct basic grammar :)

I've always been a decent speller. For some reason the way words form in my brain helps me understand spelling. I don't know any of the English rules I learned about grammar or spelling I just kind of have a feel for it. Grammar though has never been a strong suit of mine and is more akin to a "Wasteland." (HAH)

I used AIM a lot in the latter middle school years and high school but for some reason I rarely remember using "net speak." I always feel good when I write well so I try my best although most the time my writing is just a bunch of prattling and ranting. The only time I ever substitute a "u" for a "you" is in a long text message where I can't fit everything into the 160 word max or when I have to fire a message quickly.

As far as reading posts with bad grammar? As long as it's both legible and discernible I'm fine. In fact I find them kind of funny sometimes, especially the foreigners. I also don't like to give people shit for bad spelling because I had a friend who was absolutely awful at it.

My problem tends to be that I don't proofread. My mind often thinks farther ahead then where I'm typing and I'll skip words or even substitute other words in. I've type "way" instead of "where" and "for" instead of "from" plenty of times. In fact I guarantee I've already done it in this post somewhere and you'll see a little "edit" at the bottom later ;)

I hate writing but I tend to be decent at it. In my whole academic career I've never gotten a grade on a paper lower than a B. Maybe I've had easy teachers and I really do suck at writing but I still take a small shot of pride in knowing this.

"djcubez" wrote:



I like to think of myself as a good writer. (Even if I do tend toward the "pedantic" style.) Part of the reason that I tend not to worry overmuch about the rules of grammar is that I was never "taught" them. I learned how to write, I'm convinced, by unconscious imitation of other writers.

In short, I read. I've always read. A lot. And so I have, sort of by osmosis, picked up the habits illustrated by other writers.

Sometimes that gets me into trouble. I use nested clauses far too often. And hanging out with academics for most of my adult life means I really have to watch out for passive voice. (Neither of those are "grammar" problems, though, just bad diction.)

But, in general, that reading experience means I intuitively tend to know "what works" and "what doesn't work." Whether its because of a rule of grammar being violated, or some other problem, I often can't say -- because I never had one of those English teachers who hammered 101 different rules at us. Indeed, about the only time I ever really have been taught "rules of grammar" is when I've taken foreign languages.

(Which may say something, but I'm not sure what. I do know that, like me, a lot of people have trouble with foreign languages. And I wonder if it is because they have to try to substitute "learning from the rules of grammar" because of their rush to learn the language quickly rather than by reading experience as the "home" language often develops.)

Djcubez, you said, "I hope you at least correct basic grammar." Yes and no.

Certainly a lot of my red ink does correct grammar along the way: for example, I'm always highlighting problems where the subject and verb don't agree in number. But the reason I do it is not because it breaks a rule but because, as my red ink points out on the student paper, it confuses the reader and makes him slow down to re-read.

And making the reader slow down too often is the kiss of death if you want the reader to pay attention.

Rourke may be a faster reader than most of us, but he describes exactly what readers do. If as writers we make people slow down too much, we lose them. People are busy. People don't have time to figure things out like a teacher is (sort of) paid to do.

If a reader decides that a person's writing is too much work to read, that is *always* the writer's problem. No one has an inalienable right to be listened to. People are going to listen only if you as a writer provide them enough value, at low enough listening cost.

Frankly, sometimes writing is a pain in the ass. I don't hate writing, but I often hate the time it takes. When I was in college, I used to use "1 hour for 1 page of draft text" as a rule of thumb. Now, 30 years later, that same draft text more often than not will take 2-3 hours. And professional typically takes me several drafts.

Take the "letter of reference" that every professor writes. (One benefit of my not being a favorite teacher is that I don't get as many as some, but I still get several requests a semester.) I have to budget a minimum of 3-4 hours of time for each 1-2 page letter. Because, even though I've written enough of them that some of the language is close to boilerplate by now, it's next to impossible to get them done quicker.

And that's from someone who claims he is a pretty good writer.

Because what I'm not -- and what most people are not -- is a "natural" writer. Good writing takes time. A lot of it.

Which is why Internet writing cannot be expected to work as well with readers. Alll of us are in a hurry.

We don't have time to write tomes like this post. (Because I'm going to really pay in the next couple hours because I now have to cram an extra 40 minutes worth of class prep into 40 minutes less.)

Or even read them.

So I'll stop now.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
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