Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago


Packers' weakness: Transition to 3-4
 


May 19, 2009 12:00 PM
Posted by Scouts Inc.'s Matt Williamson

It drives me crazy when teams make a drastic switch in scheme because that is what the cool kids are doing.

In this case, the cool kids are Baltimore, Pittsburgh, New England and other successful 3-4 teams. Of course, I understand many teams are now led by men who come from flourishing teams that ran the 3-4, but that doesn't make it the right decision. I can see -- to some degree -- why Denver would make this switch, as its defense hasn't been successful in recent memory and the defensive players on its roster were inadequate for either an odd or even front.

Kansas City bothers me because its most valuable front seven players -- Tamba Hali, Glenn Dorsey and Derrick Johnson -- all are far better fits for a traditional 4-3 than the 3-4. Doing that to Dorsey is especially sinister. However, it wasn't like Kansas City was a powerhouse on that side of the ball either.

But the Green Bay switch really gets under my skin. Two years ago, the Packers had an upper-tier defense while running the 4-3. The strength of that team was a very deep, talented and versatile defensive line. The Packers rotated big men in, stayed fresh up front and put an awful lot of pressure on opposing offenses for four quarters. Last year, the defensive front was hit hard by injuries, Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila was released and Corey Williams was dealt to the Browns before the season. Why not just bring in one or two more 4-3 linemen and stick with what worked?

Turning Aaron Kampman, Green Bay's best front-seven player, into an outside linebacker is criminal. He was one of the better defensive ends in the league, and those guys don't grow on trees. Surely Kampman will not do it often, but dropping him into coverage with any regularity is a mistake. Although Cullen Jenkins, another very talented defensive lineman, is versatile enough to play end or tackle in the 4-3, he is a penetrator and asking him to hold the point as a 3-4 end could be a waste of what he does best.

I am also not fond of A.J. Hawk, a prototypical 4-3 weakside linebacker, and Nick Barnett, a very successful run-and-hit middle linebacker in the old scheme, being the starting two inside guys in the new 3-4. Neither player is equipped to take on massive guards at the point of attack. I expect to see these two getting swallowed up far too often.

I must admit that I expected the Packers' front seven to be even more ill-equipped to make this change at this point of the year than they are right now. I was shocked that B.J. Raji fell to Green Bay in the first round, and I feel Clay Matthews Jr. should fit the scheme well. Matthews is more linebacker than defensive end, while Kampman is the exact opposite. Those two could complement each other at outside linebacker rather well.

That being said, rookies rarely adapt quickly to the 3-4, and although Matthews did play some of the scheme last year at USC, neither player has extensive experience running it.

It should be noted that Dom Capers will be the one coordinating the change. Capers knows what will make the transformation more palatable.

I still contend that the Packers would have been better off sticking with the 4-3 and still drafting Raji. Without making the change, Green Bay would not have had to uncharacteristically jump back into the first round to fill a position of need, and could have used the resources that it took to get Matthews to add to other areas of the team, such as offensive tackle or another 4-3 defensive end. Expect some growing pains on defense.


UserPostedImage
zombieslayer
15 years ago
A few points...

1) I have faith in Capers. Historically, he's shown he can turn a D around in one season,
2) Kampy will see plenty of 4-3 action
3) The reason why the cool kids are doing it is because football evolves. Now, half the teams in the league are running some version of the WCO. The game got faster. That's just how it goes.

So a D has to adjust. Between those 3 teams the writer mentioned, they have SIX SB wins in the 00s. 3 teams, 6 Lombardis, all running a 3-4 D.

Evolve. Or die out. I chose to evolve.
My man Donald Driver
UserPostedImage
(thanks to Pack93z for the pic)
2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
Dulak
15 years ago

A few points...

1) I have faith in Capers. Historically, he's shown he can turn a D around in one season,
2) Kampy will see plenty of 4-3 action
3) The reason why the cool kids are doing it is because football evolves. Now, half the teams in the league are running some version of the WCO. The game got faster. That's just how it goes.

So a D has to adjust. Between those 3 teams the writer mentioned, they have SIX SB wins in the 00s. 3 teams, 6 Lombardis, all running a 3-4 D.

Evolve. Or die out. I chose to evolve.

"zombieslayer" wrote:



Interesting points thou the author makes ... one doesnt have to be a 3-4 team to dominate at defense. ie the viks.

Perhaps we could of just changed some of the personel upfront and still did good with the 4-3 (run by a different coach).

But in arguments sake the 3-4 gives us
- better run stoppage
- able to deceive the opposing O more
- More LBers = better special teams

while kampman may not be the ideal OLBer; switching to a 3-4 on paper should win us more games then what we were running since all the above areas we were weak on last year.

Personally Id much rather have capers then sanders as our DC.

I still think the switch is good; we will see thou.
dingus
15 years ago
Once again I'll ask, what's so damn dominant about the Vikes D? Ten wins, our "shitty" team managed to beat them once and lose by a point the second time, what gives? I can think of a few D's I'd rather have than the vikes. I think you lose 1 of the Williams' and it's over.

And Capers has said the transition will be slow, They won't be running a full on 3-4 this season.
blank
porky88
15 years ago
It's certainly going to be a tough transition, but I would contest that the Packers are not a pure 3-4 team right out of the gate. They'll play as much 4-3.

I also think the fact that the Miami Dolphins went from one win to 11 is another example of a quick turnaround in possible. Miami also had the entire team to turn around and Green Bay just has the defense.

I also think Barnett is a little overrated due to his 07 season. He really struggled last year and even before the injuries, Green Bay's defense was getting beat up especially against the run.
PackFanWithTwins
15 years ago
I wouldn't have had a problem with a coach coming in and continuing to play the 4-3. I also don't have a problem with switching. All I want is more aggression.

The change can be accomplished without super big changes. If you watched USC (where Matthews came from). They run a 4-3 Under. In that 4-3 they shift the Dline to place one of the DT head up on the C. That same formation could be considered a 3-4 simply by labeling one of the DE as a OLB. Which is what I expect to see on the field this fall.
The world needs ditch diggers too Danny!!!
doddpower
15 years ago
I don't think it had as much to do with a 4-3 or a 3-4, but more with just picking the "Best Coach Available" type of signing. It was obvious (at least to me and our front office) that Sanders wasn't getting it done so he was fired along with the majority of our defensive staff. Next, we had to hire another coach. I don't think we were necessarily going out and looking for our next defensive coordinator to specifically run a 3-4, but just the best coach available. Obviously that consisted of Dom Capers, Mike Nolan (both 3-4 guys) and the fellow from Tennessee that went to the Saints (who runs a 4-3 I believe).

I kind of view it just like the Best Player Available strategy with the draft. Talent is talent and having an experienced, innovative, and talented coach such as Dom Capers is never a bad thing. A superb coach can overcome inexperience often with his players. It has been stated more then once in various articles that the significance of good coaching can NOT be overlooked.

But yeah, I think the whole 4-3 or 3-4 arguments are simply being thought about too much. Give me a talented coach that can get the most out of the players regardless of the scheme any day of the week. Let's not forget we have basically TWO experienced defensive coordinators on our staff, Dom and Trojak (sp?) from the Panther's.

I couldn't be more impressed with our re-alignment of our defensive coaching staff this off-season.
Dulak
15 years ago

I don't think it had as much to do with a 4-3 or a 3-4, but more with just picking the "Best Coach Available" type of signing. It was obvious (at least to me and our front office) that Sanders wasn't getting it done so he was fired along with the majority of our defensive staff. Next, we had to hire another coach. I don't think we were necessarily going out and looking for our next defensive coordinator to specifically run a 3-4, but just the best coach available. Obviously that consisted of Dom Capers, Mike Nolan (both 3-4 guys) and the fellow from Tennessee that went to the Saints (who runs a 4-3 I believe).

I kind of view it just like the Best Player Available strategy with the draft. Talent is talent and having an experienced, innovative, and talented coach such as Dom Capers is never a bad thing. A superb coach can overcome inexperience often with his players. It has been stated more then once in various articles that the significance of good coaching can NOT be overlooked.

But yeah, I think the whole 4-3 or 3-4 arguments are simply being thought about too much. Give me a talented coach that can get the most out of the players regardless of the scheme any day of the week. Let's not forget we have basically TWO experienced defensive coordinators on our staff, Dom and Trojak (sp?) from the Panther's.

I couldn't be more impressed with our re-alignment of our defensive coaching staff this off-season.

"doddpower" wrote:



Ya thats exactly what happened this off-season. We were going to get the best coach available for the job and it came out dom wasnt even our first choice (but I am glad now we got him). And he is the one that implemented the 3-4 - it wasnt Mike M that said we need a 3-4 D lets get a 3-4 DC

Makes perfect sense IMO to switch to the 3-4.

And ya soon after dom came in he said kampman would play with his hand down 50-60% of the time (ie 4-3).

dom also stated it will be a 3 year transition to a pure 3-4.
dfosterf
15 years ago
I want to draw what might on the surface be a weird analogy.

I have never had a problem with the philosophy of ZBS on the offense, per se.

My beef has always been with the "body type" incorporated in order to run it. I also understand that some teams have found those "body types"...but in a bigger, beefier version than our own. This has to do with how/when they got them vs. how/when we got them, but that is not only an opinion, it is whole other story.

Thing is, I see a different dynamic (I'm big "dynamic" today, lol) on the defense. I see far more interchangeability, more options for either a 3-4 or 4-3, and most importantly...far most importantly... I see the athletes that can (probably) play either or both.

I hope my analogy makes sense to more folk than me.
CPTryder1536
15 years ago
I think moving AJ Hawk inside is a good move because what they were asking him to do on the outside he could not do it. He sucked in coverage and really hurt us there. He could not stick the TE to save his life. Plus in run support he took to wide of angles and the RB would cut up field on him almost all the time.

I trust what the Packers are doing and I see great potential for this years team.
blank
Fan Shout
packerfanoutwest (3m) : ok I stand corrected
Zero2Cool (5m) : Ok, yes, you are right. I see that now how they get 7th
Zero2Cool (5m) : 5th - Packers win out, Vikings lose out. Maybe?
beast (6m) : Saying no to the 6th lock.
beast (6m) : No, with the Commanders beating the Eagles, Packers could have a good chance of 6th or 7th unless the win out
Zero2Cool (10m) : I think if Packers win, they are locked 6th with chance for 5th.
beast (10m) : But it doesn't matter, as the Packers win surely win one of their remaining games
beast (11m) : This is not complex, just someone doesn't want to believe reality
beast (11m) : We already have told you... if Packers lose all their games (they won't, but if they did), and Buccaneers and Falcons win all theirs
Zero2Cool (13m) : I posted it in that Packers and 1 seed thread
Zero2Cool (15m) : I literally just said it.
packerfanoutwest (19m) : show us a scenario where Pack don't get in? bet you can't
Zero2Cool (21m) : Falcons, Buccaneers would need to win final two games.
Zero2Cool (21m) : Yes, if they win one of three, they are lock. If they lose out, they can be eliminated.
packerfanoutwest (31m) : as I just said,,gtheyh are in no matter what
Zero2Cool (36m) : Packers should get in. I just hope it's not 7th seed. Feels dirty.
packerfanoutwest (39m) : If packers lose out, no matter what, they are in
packerfanoutwest (39m) : both teams can not male the playoffs....falcon hold the tie breaker
packerfanoutwest (41m) : if bucs win out they win their division
beast (50m) : Fine, Buccaneers and Falcons can get ahead of us
packerfanoutwest (56m) : falcons are already ahead of us
beast (1h) : Packers will get in
beast (1h) : If Packers lose the rest of their games and Falcons win the rest of theirs, they could pass us... but not gonna happen
packerfanoutwest (1h) : they still are in the playoffs
packerfanoutwest (1h) : If Packers lose the remaining games,,,,at 10-7
Zero2Cool (2h) : We can say it. We don't play.
Mucky Tundra (4h) : But to say they are in is looking past the Saints
Mucky Tundra (4h) : That said, their odds are very favorable with a >99% chance of making the playoffs entering this week's games
Mucky Tundra (4h) : Packers are not in and have not clinched a playoff spot.
buckeyepackfan (4h) : Packers are in, they need to keep winning to improve their seed#.
Mucky Tundra (13h) : Getting help would have been nice, but helping ourselves should always be the plan
beast (14h) : Too bad Seahawks couldn't beat Vikings
bboystyle (14h) : We just need to win Monday night and were in
Mucky Tundra (17h) : Or ties, but let's be real here
Mucky Tundra (17h) : Other scenario was Falcons+Rams losses
Mucky Tundra (17h) : Needed a Falcons loss for a Seahawk loss to clinch
buckeyepackfan (17h) : Am I wring in saying if Tge Vikings beat The Seahawks, The Packers clinch?
Mucky Tundra (21-Dec) : Agreed; you stinks
Zero2Cool (21-Dec) : I'm not beating anyone. I stinks.
Mucky Tundra (21-Dec) : rough injury for tank dell. guy can't catch abreak
beast (21-Dec) : So far the college playoffs have sucked... One team absolutely dominates the other
beast (21-Dec) : Well even if you weren't positive towards a guy, you wouldn't nessarily want to tell the media that (if they don't know about it)
Martha Careful (21-Dec) : I think MLF want Love to look past the end half issues, and feel good about his play. Our coaches generally keep a very positive tone.
beast (21-Dec) : I think a great running game will do that for most QBs
packerfanoutwest (21-Dec) : Coach Matt LaFleur has said quarterback Jordan Love is playing the best football of his career.
beast (21-Dec) : Oh, that's how you keep beating buckeye, with cheating
Zero2Cool (20-Dec) : There is a rule that if your name starts with 'b' you lose 15 points. Hey, I don't make the rules, I just enforce them!
wpr (20-Dec) : and then there is Beast. Running away with it all.
beast (20-Dec) : As of tonight, 3 way tie for 2nd in Pick'em, that battle is interesting!
beast (20-Dec) : Lions vs Vikings could be the main last game as it could determine division winners or #1 vs #2 seed
Please sign in to use Fan Shout
2024 Packers Schedule
Friday, Sep 6 @ 7:15 PM
Eagles
Sunday, Sep 15 @ 12:00 PM
COLTS
Sunday, Sep 22 @ 12:00 PM
Titans
Sunday, Sep 29 @ 12:00 PM
VIKINGS
Sunday, Oct 6 @ 3:25 PM
Rams
Sunday, Oct 13 @ 12:00 PM
CARDINALS
Sunday, Oct 20 @ 12:00 PM
TEXANS
Sunday, Oct 27 @ 12:00 PM
Jaguars
Sunday, Nov 3 @ 3:25 PM
LIONS
Sunday, Nov 17 @ 12:00 PM
Bears
Sunday, Nov 24 @ 3:25 PM
49ERS
Thursday, Nov 28 @ 7:20 PM
DOLPHINS
Thursday, Dec 5 @ 7:15 PM
Lions
Sunday, Dec 15 @ 7:20 PM
Seahawks
Monday, Dec 23 @ 7:15 PM
SAINTS
Sunday, Dec 29 @ 12:00 PM
Vikings
Saturday, Jan 4 @ 11:00 PM
BEARS
Recent Topics
13m / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

13h / Green Bay Packers Talk / Mucky Tundra

22-Dec / Green Bay Packers Talk / packerfanoutwest

19-Dec / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

19-Dec / Random Babble / Zero2Cool

18-Dec / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

17-Dec / Green Bay Packers Talk / wpr

17-Dec / Featured Content / Zero2Cool

16-Dec / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

16-Dec / Green Bay Packers Talk / Martha Careful

16-Dec / Green Bay Packers Talk / beast

16-Dec / Feedback, Suggestions and Issues / Mucky Tundra

16-Dec / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

16-Dec / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

16-Dec / Green Bay Packers Talk / Zero2Cool

Headlines
Copyright © 2006 - 2024 PackersHome.com™. All Rights Reserved.