Martha Careful
a year ago
I have taken the liberty of copying some of your comments from the Fan Shout:

dfosterf (10m) : Sarcasm
Zero2Cool (15m) : haha, some mutiny huh?
Zero2Cool (16m) : Isn't 5k nukes going to a merc a big thing? why you think that is "nothing much" weird
beast (1h) : Z2C: Short version - Russia's official and unofficially armies started fighting each other for a couple of hours.l
dfosterf (2h) : Moscow. "If I need a gun, I'll just take yours"
dfosterf (2h) : See parking garage scene. Same as March to
dfosterf (2h) : Personally, I think Perghozen is really Mike Ehrmantraut from Better call Saul in disguise
dfosterf (2h) : According to the Washington Post
dfosterf (2h) : Prigohzen reportedly warned the US of his impending insurrection/coup/whateverthatwas
dfosterf (2h) : Putin to a mercenary
dfosterf (2h) : Nothing much. Just that control of 5 to 6 thousand nukes were in some Jeopardy of switching from
Zero2Cool (2h) : Russia? CIA? What the heck you talking about?
beast (3h) : Then again, CIA is supposed to make it seem like it's not them.
beast (3h) : I doubt it was CIA, my guess is two War parties fighting over the same limited resources (and maybe on whom is in line for future power) as Putin is supposedly having some health issues
Martha Careful (4h) : CIA failed coup? But they sidelined their most effective military commander
beast (10h) : Well Russia attacking Russia stuff sounded interesting

Inquiring minds want to know:
  1. Was the CIA or state department intelligence behind this or did it encourage it in any way?
  2. Do you think Prigozhin had any indications that certain Russian oligarchs would back his coup?
  3. Why did he do it now?
  4. Why did he stop when he was well on the road to Moscow?
  5. There are some out there who believe that this was simply a very complicated Russia counterintelligence operation to smoke out dissidents and malcontents... Is that plausible?
  6. There is another theory that says that they wanted to draw Ukraine into a hasty advance by giving the appearance of mayhem internal to Russia forces. This one is far fetched as far as I'm concerned.
  7. what is the over under life expectancy for Prigozhin?


Go Packers!!!!
dfosterf
a year ago
A definitive non political open resource is available that goes into depth as to the event.

Understandingwar.org 

June 24 2023 article

I suggest the simplified page if on a cellphone



 
beast
a year ago

I have taken the liberty of copying some of your comments from the Fan Shout:Inquiring minds want to know:

  1. Was the CIA or state department intelligence behind this or did it encourage it in any way?
  2. Do you think Prigozhin had any indications that certain Russian oligarchs would back his coup?
  3. Why did he do it now?
  4. Why did he stop when he was well on the road to Moscow?
  5. There are some out there who believe that this was simply a very complicated Russia counterintelligence operation to smoke out dissidents and malcontents... Is that plausible?
  6. There is another theory that says that they wanted to draw Ukraine into a hasty advance by giving the appearance of mayhem internal to Russia forces. This one is far fetched as far as I'm concerned.
  7. what is the over under life expectancy for Prigozhin?

Originally Posted by: Martha Careful 



I have absolutely no idea, but just my thoughts or what I've heard someone mentioned.

1) I'm sure they always encourage our enemies to fight our other enemies, but no idea if they had a direct hand in this, I'm thinking it was more of a battle of resources, ego and power.

As Prigozhin supposedly has a strong mutual hatred for the head of the military, Valery Gerasimov, and the Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu believing they were corrupt and incompetent.

With them battling for fame, glory, headlines, power and maybe most importantly in this very limited resources. Prigozhin was reliant on the other two to get his units resources and they don't like each other at all.

2) I think Prigozhin wanted Putin to either (1) back him up and kick out the other guys or (2) let him get the hell out of the way. Not caring which as long as he doesn't have to deal with the other guys anymore, especially since the other guys were controlling his resource flows, as he argued they weren't giving them enough bullets.

3) One report said the Russian troops started firing in the Wagner group... but Wagner has been pissed for months now, claiming they're having the most success, and not getting the resources to continue it, they finally snapped risking their lives and not getting the resources they need.

4) Sounded like they worked out an agreement to get the upset Soldiers out of the War, that's a major win, that's why they stopped, also according to some American reports, it sounded like they didn't believe the group had enough people or resources to do that much once they got to Moscow, other than piss more people off.

5) That was my first assumption, that this was fake and Russia was just trying to rally the people, like hearing about the "Ukrainian" minor drone strikes on the Moscow capital which seemed like B.S. as why would an enemy do a minor strike at night when they know no one is at the building, and why would it be minor with almost no damage at all, not even a broken window. That seemed like a PR stunt more than an attack. But I think this was real two groups getting over heated.

6) Last I heard, Ukraine was currently going slowly backwards, so IMO, the timing is horrible for that theory 

7) Depends on their future plans. They could be planning on killing him soon (though he has controlled a lot of Russia's off the books guy, and might have more control of the under handed guys than Russia does) so that MIGHT be much easier said than done as he knows their tricks and the players in the game.

But it's also possible they might make him head of the Belarus army and let him create plans on how to attack Ukraine from the North which as been reported as a possibility for months, but Belarus doesn't want to official get involved, but Prigozhin is the king of unofficial missions.
​​​​​​
UserPostedImage
dfosterf
a year ago
There are many divergent interests within the various intelligence agencies and diplomatic community. 

Wagner isnt just a bunch of mercenaries. It is an international crime organization. Probably the largest criminal organization on earth, depending on how you define certain governments.
Some examples:
Wagner in Central African Republic. Props up the warlord there, to the point of effectively controlling the country. Extricating diamonds, gold other minerals. E.G. The largest diamond mine in the country is owned on paper by the driver of the head of Wagner in the country.

Mali is effectively controlled by Wagner. Same thing, raw materials, bogus contracts.

The Russian influence in Libya is primarily through Wagner, and they just signed an oil deal there.

Syria has Wagner group protection and influence. The US had a little war with Syria back in 2018 where we directly engaged and allegedly killed a bunch of Wagner group Russians and Chechnyans. 

Various interests in our country would love to declaw Wagner in Africa and elsewhere, and that is now on the table due to yesterday's events. That angle is not necessarily in the best interests of the United States, but you must wonder why the White House and security agencies leaked to the Washington Post that they were warned about his intentions prior to his march north. Not so much that he told us, more along the lines of someone in our government leaking it to the public.  Dangerous little game, imo

The guy or gal in the CIA for example that is responsible for the mideast and central Africa is one hell of a lot more pleased with events as they unfolded than the guy or gal in charge of making sure Putin doesn't get especially pissed and start feeling cornered and shucking nukes, tactical or otherwise into Ukraine, Nato or  elsewhere. There is my one part of answering question one. 😆 
 
Martha Careful
a year ago
From the WSJ a few minutes ago:

Putin’s War on Ukraine Backfires, Leading to Wagner Uprising at Home
Invasion meant to achieve regime change in Kyiv now threatens the regime in Russia
By   Yaroslav Trofimov   and Thomas Grove    Updated June 24, 2023 4:49 pm ET

Fighters from the Wagner paramilitary group, led by Prigozhin, seized on Saturday two Russian cities and were rolling toward Moscow for a confrontation with the country’s military leadership when a deal brokered by Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko between Prigozhin and Putin averted a potential bloodbath in the country’s capital.

The agreement and tentative truce staved off the possibility that anger over the Kremlin’s handling of the war in Ukraine, from its flawed planning to its first disastrous days to more recent failures, could spark civil war.

But the very sight of armed men in Russian cities calling for the removal of Moscow’s military command shows how a war that was meant to achieve regime change in Ukraine could threaten the regime in Russia by harnessing deep anger over the failures of the country’s political and military leadership.

“Putin’s biggest miscalculation is that he started a war based on a completely inadequate understanding about the world, about his army, and about Ukraine,” said Russian political scientist Konstantin Sonin, a professor at the University of Chicago. “And then he kept making miscalculations every day, by not stopping the war.”

Prigozhin’s uprising threatened to repeat previous instances of how unsuccessful and bloody foreign adventures trigger unrest and even a revolution—from the 1905 campaign against Japan, to World War I, to the Soviet quagmire in Afghanistan.

As part of the deal Prigozhin will move to Belarus and fighters who took part in the uprising will be amnestied.
By launching the ill-prepared invasion of Ukraine 16 months ago, a war that he expected to conclude with a triumph days later, Putin fell into the same trap.

Social tensions over accumulated losses and military setbacks in Ukraine have fueled the rise of Prigozhin and his Wagner paramilitary group, creating the biggest threat to Putin’s rule since he came to power in 2000.

Wagner’s soldiers were deployed in Africa and in Syria when Russian troops crossed into Ukraine on Feb. 24, 2022. The Kremlin asked Prigozhin to join the war effort only after Russian troops failed to take Ukrainian capital Kyiv and were facing severe losses across northern Ukraine.

While regular Russian forces suffered a series of additional defeats in the fall of last year, Wagner achieved a rare success, capturing the eastern Ukrainian city of Bakhmut. That record has given Prigozhin the authority to speak honestly about the ineptitude of the Russian military—something that he did, with growing vitriol, over the past several months.

“Prigozhin is now telling the truth about the military failure and the official pretext for the invasion,” said Fiona Hill, the chancellor-designate of Durham University in Britain who oversaw Russia policy in the Trump White House. “He openly says what a lot of other people are thinking.”

The war, initially waged just by the professional military, now affects the entire Russian society. Russia has had to resort to the mobilization of hundreds of thousands of men to shore up the crumbling front lines, prompting a mass wave of emigration. Ukrainian drone attacks deep inside Russia have become commonplace, puncturing Putin’s carefully nurtured image of strength.

Despite these setbacks, Putin continued to believe that time was on Russia’s side. Western democracies helping Ukraine would eventually tire, the thinking went, while his regime, secured by increasingly draconian laws that eliminated the liberal opposition at home, would endure and eventually win. The Wagner uprising, however, made it obvious that Russia is far less stable than Putin believed it to be.

“The hopes of a part of the Russian elite, including, apparently, the president himself, that a long war is beneficial for Russia…are a dangerous illusion,” said Ruslan Pukhov, director of Moscow-based Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, a military-affairs think tank. “Prolongation of the war carries huge domestic political risks for the Russian Federation.”

Lithuanian Foreign Minister Gabrielius Landsbergis said his country had existed in Russia’s orbit for centuries, affected by the internal crises that had shaken Moscow. “It’s only a matter of time before the next chaotic implosion,” he wrote on Twitter.

Putin himself compared Russia’s current predicament to 1917, when troops tired of the bloodshed of World War I mutinied and overthrew Czar Nicholas II—a revolution that, Putin said Saturday, had stolen a deserved victory from the Russian Empire and led to the loss of vast tracts of land, such as Finland, Poland and the Baltic States.

In 1905, Russia launched what the czar’s interior minister, Vyacheslav von Plehve, dubbed “a little victorious war” against Japan that was meant to deflect attention from domestic problems—just to suffer a humiliating defeat and a revolution. Similarly, the Soviet losses in the decade after invading Afghanistan in 1979 were a key reason for the internal tensions that led to the Soviet Union’s demise in 1991.

Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky cautioned on Saturday that unrest in Russia will only expand as long as Russian troops remain at war. “The longer Russia will keep its forces and mercenaries on our land,” he said, “the more chaos, pain and problems for itself will it get.”

A desperate Putin could mean escalation.
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Martha Careful
a year ago

 That angle is not necessarily in the best interests of the United States, but you must wonder why the White House and security agencies leaked to the Washington Post that they were warned about his intentions prior to his march north. Not so much that he told us, more along the lines of someone in our government leaking it to the public.  Dangerous little game, imo 

Originally Posted by: dfosterf 

WAPO has long been rumored to be the mouthpiece for the CIA
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dfosterf
a year ago
Threat to the families of Wagner Officers would definitely be a possibility, especially in light of the sheer craziness of agreeing to go to Belarus. He'd be much safer in Ukraine itself. He does have a 20 year friendship with the Belarusan criminals, but that friendship probably doesn't mean much right now. I was thinking he might go to the CAR, but that wouldn't help his or his officers families. May sound conspiracy theory whacky, but all of these people are stone cold murderes.  
I would be more shocked that his family wasn't threatened than if they were.
 
beast
a year ago

May sound conspiracy theory whacky, but all of these people are stone cold murderes.  

I would be more shocked that his family wasn't threatened than if they were.
 

Originally Posted by: dfosterf 


Yes but knowing this in advanced, you would think he would either have gotten his family out of Russia (like Putin reportedly or rumoredly has) OR already be prepared for them to die.

I believe it's been reported that Putin's new young GF and whom they have kids with, has been living in Switzerland before the build up of the Ukraine war.

Also, one of his adult Daughters went to NATO Europe county I believe, but she was anti-war and some have written her off as an unloyal Daughter or some crap, it did paint her as a liberal artsy type, and very big into performance arts.

I think Putin's oldest Daughter has stayed in Russia, but she's all grown up, and probably very safe.
UserPostedImage
Martha Careful
a year ago
A strange dude and an even stranger theory, but plausible if you don't mind killing a few of your fellow Russians  (and I don't think they do).
Kim Dotcom opines  

Kim Dotcom: Did Putin and Prigozhin Play the CIA to the Tune of $6 Billion?
By Richard Abelson Jun. 25, 2023 1:00 pm1210 Comments
 
Hacker Kim Dotcom has offered his take on the “Wagner Coup” in Russia, intimating that Wagner boss Yevgeny Prigozhin may have collected billions from the CIA to stage a coup, and then aborted the coup.

Several observers such as Rep. Majorie Taylor Greene have speculated the Wagner Coup may have had US backing (Gateway reported).

On Saturday, Kim “Dotcom” Schmitz had offered his explanation of the background of the inner-Russian strife:

“This started as a power struggle between Prigozhin and (Russsian Minister of Defence Sergei) Shoigu. In the beginning of the Special military operation Shoigu and his team made mistakes and Prigozhin became of strong critic of Shoigu. Prigozhin then had success in Bakhmut with Wagner Group presenting himself as a better military leader than Shoigu.

In my view Shoigu then provoked Prigozhin by limiting ammunition supplies to Bakhmut resulting in Wagner Group losses and a strong reaction from Prigozhin. Many of you have seen the video of Prigozhin attacking Shoigu and the Russian military leadership.

Ammunition deliveries were restored and victory in Bakhmut was achieved but the video outburst by Prigozhin was likely counterproductive for him because the Kremlin and senior political leaders in Moscow saw him as a loose cannon who can’t be trusted. Prigozhin doubled down predicting a massive loss for the Russian military claiming that it was not ready for the Ukrainian counter-offensive. He claimed that the Russian troops are badly equipped and poorly managed by Shoigu.

With the Russian military successfully repelling the Ukrainian counter-offensive Prigozhin had played himself into a corner and his time was running out because Shoigu and his Generals delivered a major victory for the Kremlin. In my view the actions by Prigozhin are an act of desperation because he has lost the power struggle against Shoigu and is likely facing serious retaliation.

Western media claims this is an attempted coup against Putin. That’s nonsense. The popularity of Putin within Russia and in the non-western world has never been higher. However this war between Prigozhin and Shoigu is an unwelcome distraction for the Kremlin and the most likely outcome will be the arrest or termination of Prigozhin.”

Kim Schmitz then went on a Spaces discussion with host Mario Nawfal and argued that Vladimir Putin and Yevgeny Prigozhin would reach a negotiated settlement, even as a column of Wagner vehicles was approaching Moscow and many Ukraine hawks were breathlessly awaiting a coup and anarchy in the world’s largest nuclear power.

Kim Dotcom then posted this meme suggesting the $6.2 billion for Ukraine that Pentagon accountants “discovered” in June were actually pocketed by Prigozhin in return for his aborted coup attempt.

Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic charged that “foreign services” were involved in the Saturday coup attempt: “I don’t want to say who was involved from the outside, but have no doubts.”


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Zero2Cool
a year ago
Good thread!
UserPostedImage
Fan Shout
Zero2Cool (12h) : He probably plays DB.
Zero2Cool (12h) : I don't even know who that Don is
packerfanoutwest (12h) : What position does Lemon play ?
dfosterf (12h) : I read this am that Don Lemon quit x, so there's that
Zero2Cool (13-Nov) : Seems some are flocking to BlueSky and leaving Tweeter. I wonder if BlueSky allows embeded lists
beast (12-Nov) : He's a review guy
Zero2Cool (12-Nov) : Jordy Nelson is still in the NFL.
Zero2Cool (11-Nov) : Ok, will do.
wpr (11-Nov) : Kevin, donate it to a local food pantry or whatever she wants to do with it. Thanks
wpr (11-Nov) : Kevin,
Zero2Cool (11-Nov) : Wayne, got your girl scout order.
dfosterf (11-Nov) : I believe Zero was being sarcastic
dfosterf (11-Nov) : Due to that rookie kicker Jake Bates that Zero said "he didn't want anyway". 58 yarder to tie the game, 52 yarder to win it. In fairness,
Mucky Tundra (11-Nov) : Lions escape with a win
Mucky Tundra (11-Nov) : and now Goff looking better
Mucky Tundra (11-Nov) : Goff with ANOTHER INT
Mucky Tundra (11-Nov) : and now Stroud throwing INTs
Mucky Tundra (11-Nov) : Goff having an ATROCIOUS game
wpr (11-Nov) : Happy birthday Corps. Ever faithful. Thanks dfosterf.
Mucky Tundra (10-Nov) : stiff armed by Baker Mayfield for about 5-7 yards and still managed to get a pass off
Mucky Tundra (10-Nov) : Nick Bosa
wpr (8-Nov) : Jets are Packers (L)East
Zero2Cool (8-Nov) : Jets released K Riley Patterson and signed K Anders Carlson to the practice squad.
wpr (8-Nov) : Thanks guys
Mucky Tundra (7-Nov) : Happy Birthday wpr!
Zero2Cool (7-Nov) : Anders Carlson ... released by 49ers
dfosterf (7-Nov) : Happy Birthday!😊😊😊
wpr (7-Nov) : Thanks Kevin.
Zero2Cool (7-Nov) : Happy Birthday, Wayne! 🎉🎂🥳
beast (7-Nov) : Edge Rushers is the same... it's not the 4-3 vs 3-4 change, it's the Hafley's version of the 4-3... as all 32 teams are actually 4-2
Zero2Cool (6-Nov) : OLB to DE and player requests trade. Yet folks say they are same.
beast (5-Nov) : In other news, the Green Bay Packers have signed Zero2Cool to update their website 😋 jk
beast (5-Nov) : Might just re-sign the kicker we got
beast (5-Nov) : Are there any kickers worth drafting next year?
Zero2Cool (5-Nov) : Preston Smith for Malik Willis
Mucky Tundra (5-Nov) : Getting a 7th rounder from the Stillers
Zero2Cool (5-Nov) : At least we get 7th round pick now!! HELLO NEW KICKER
Mucky Tundra (5-Nov) : Steelers getting a premier lockdown corner!
Zero2Cool (5-Nov) : Packers are trading edge rusher Preston Smith to the Pittsburgh Steelers, per sources.
Mucky Tundra (5-Nov) : Preston Smith traded to the Steelers!!!!
Zero2Cool (5-Nov) : CB Marshon Lattimore to Commanders
Zero2Cool (5-Nov) : Bears are sending RB Khalil Herbert to the Bengals, per sources.
Zero2Cool (5-Nov) : ZaDarius Smith continues his "north" tour.
Zero2Cool (5-Nov) : Let the Chiefs trade a 5th for him
Zero2Cool (5-Nov) : Nearing 30, large contract, nope.
Martha Careful (5-Nov) : any interest in Marshon Lattimore?
Zero2Cool (4-Nov) : What does NFL do if they're over cap?
Mucky Tundra (4-Nov) : They've been able to constantly push it out through extensions, void years etc but they're in the hole by 72 million next year I believe
hardrocker950 (4-Nov) : Seems the Saints are always in cap hell
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