wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
3 years ago
Martha I am not offended by your comments. I don't believe most members are.
It's my opinion that most free agents have two motivations.

1. Money. They will go were ever they get the most money.
2. Championships. They will go somewhere they feel has a chance to get a championship. (and give them money too.)

On the surface meritocracy SHOULD work. Most players are Black. Given a long enough period of time, most coaches should be Black as well. We are still waiting. I can not say the reason why we are not there yet. There is probably more than one reason. Right or wrong the NFL is trying to set aside or at least mitigate one reason, familiarity. Teams hire coaches because they feel that person has the best chance of bring them a championship. I can not say why Black coaches don't interview well. Most are hired by typically weak organizations who are perpetually bottom feeders. They churn through GMs and coaches on a regular basis and don't seem to make much progress. Other teams look at the failure of the coaches and decide to go elsewhere for their new HC or GM.

BTW, the NYT link asks for us to subscribe to read the article.

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Zero2Cool
3 years ago

Martha I am not offended by your comments. I don't believe most members are.
It's my opinion that most free agents have two motivations.

1. Money. They will go were ever they get the most money.
2. Championships. They will go somewhere they feel has a chance to get a championship. (and give them money too.)

On the surface meritocracy SHOULD work. Most players are Black. Given a long enough period of time, most coaches should be Black as well. We are still waiting. I can not say the reason why we are not there yet. There is probably more than one reason. Right or wrong the NFL is trying to set aside or at least mitigate one reason, familiarity. Teams hire coaches because they feel that person has the best chance of bring them a championship. I can not say why Black coaches don't interview well. Most are hired by typically weak organizations who are perpetually bottom feeders. They churn through GMs and coaches on a regular basis and don't seem to make much progress. Other teams look at the failure of the coaches and decide to go elsewhere for their new HC or GM.

BTW, the NYT link asks for us to subscribe to read the article.

Originally Posted by: wpr 



The fact those were numbered as such is bogus. Not every free agent is seeking money first. A lot (e.g. OLDER) players are looking for a Super Bowl win. I think money is tops for most free agents who have under five years in the NFL, but those with more than five years I believe are more concerned with a Super Bowl opportunity.

Wayne is jaded, I'm still young yet and have hope for the people!!!


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wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
3 years ago

The fact those were numbered as such is bogus. Not every free agent is seeking money first. A lot (e.g. OLDER) players are looking for a Super Bowl win. I think money is tops for most free agents who have under five years in the NFL, but those with more than five years I believe are more concerned with a Super Bowl opportunity.

Wayne is jaded, I'm still young yet and have hope for the people!!!

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



When it's your list you con number as you see fit young thang. This is my list.

I guarantee you if an older player was offered half of his value to play with a team that might win a championship most of them would walk away. They want money first. If all things are close to equal then they look at the championships.

Adams is an example. He's getting older. (More than your 5 years) He wants to be the highest paid player. If GB doesn't give it to him (A team with a high potential to win) he will go elsewhere. Another example for you? Reggie White. He came to GB when no one was coming to GB. They had Favre but he wasn't winning championships at the time. He came because the Packers gave him an obscene amount of money.

That is not to say every once in a while a player will opt for a chance at the ring. Players in the final year or two are more likely to take less than they can get elsewhere. There's a difference between a 36 year old and a 27 year old (The guy who has played for 5 years.)

Carry on my wayward son.


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dhazer
3 years ago

The fact those were numbered as such is bogus. Not every free agent is seeking money first. A lot (e.g. OLDER) players are looking for a Super Bowl win. I think money is tops for most free agents who have under five years in the NFL, but those with more than five years I believe are more concerned with a Super Bowl opportunity.

Wayne is jaded, I'm still young yet and have hope for the people!!!

Originally Posted by: Zero2Cool 



I look no farther than look at the money Tampa saved on their Free Agents last year, the reason was they wanted to play with Brady and believed it was their best chance at a Super Bowl. Look at Farve after he played the game to get released from the Jets to be able to play for the Vikes and money had nothing to do with it. He wanted revenge and also wanted a good team around him. What I think is interesting is watching some average player play well in the Super Bowl and he will get offered a huge contract for it, this happens every year.



But as far as the Rooney rule being racist I say yes and if I was Black I would be very offended. Remember there are only 32 head coaching jobs. Yes, 32 and you have how many thousands of people that want to be coaches. The racist part is that a team has to interview a person because of their skin color how can that not be racist.

Just Imagine this for the next 6-9 years. What a ride it will be 🙂 (PS, Zero should charge for this)
reed
earthquake
3 years ago
The Rooney rule is ineffective and may do more harm than good on balance, but is it racist? Ehhhh. For something, a policy, rule, institution, etc to be racist it needs to be enforced by and held up by a majority - ie: those in a position to benefit from and ensure the existence of the institution.

Here's an example. A black person makes fun of white people for not being good at dancing. This might be rude or even factually inaccurate in a few cases, but without the power to oppress, it's not racism. If in 100 years black people end up being the majority in the US, and consequently forced white people not to dance through violence and systemic oppression, that would be a textbook example of racism with a capital R.

The Rooney rule was created by rich white guys, is enforced by rich white guys, and doesn't oppress anyone. It's largely benign and if anything makes a mockery of the NFL's attempts to promote diversity and equity - simply because it's so easy to manipulate.

The rule doesn't work so it should probably be scrapped, perhaps replaced with something that incentivizes diversity rather than punishes a lack of it. The draft pick rule that was introduced recently for coordinators and assistant coaches of color makes a little more sense to me. Though I'm not sure how effective that will be either.

In my view, the crux of the matter is that while the majority of the players are black, not all coaches are ex-players. Many work their way up through the college coaching system. Education and wealth, specifically generational wealth, play a big part in it. There are thousands of white coaches that have the sort of education and generational wealth that makes it possible for them to work their way up the coaching ranks, which means disproportionally more candidates on balance.

What does generational wealth have to do with it? Many coaching gigs, and especially entry-level ones at the college or NFL level are internships. Internships are often poorly paid or entirely unpaid. If you do not have the kind of generational wealth or support systems that many white people take for granted, getting into this line of work can be difficult. If you can afford to take what is effectively a hobby job, your chances of working your way up the ladder increase exponentially. On the other hand, if you have a family to feed and you're living paycheck to paycheck, you likely don't have the luxury of pursuing this sort of career. That's not to say there aren't poor white people that lack a support structure who are able to figure it out, but just that statistically speaking, black people are more likely to be living at or below the poverty line, and for numerous generations in a row. It's much rarer for white folks to be generationally poor. There's likely a good argument to be made about a relative lack of positive role models as well. As an example, black men are incarnated at much higher rates than white men, even for the same crimes. This means black kids often grow up without fathers, uncles, in many cases older brothers to look up to. And if you don't have good examples of what being a role model is, what dignity and leadership looks like, you're probably not going to get into a career where those are some of the job responsibilities.

Money comes into play with education as well. Black folks often have worse access to quality education, with inner-city schools frequently being some of the worst places in the country to get a good education - often because of the high levels of poverty, schools being funded by poor distracts and so forth. Our prohibitively expensive college-level education system doesn't help matters here.

Now, many ex-NFL players likely can afford these foot-in-the-door sorts of internships, and many have some sort of college education (often from a scholarship). So the barriers to entry are not as significant for ex-players, but that probably doesn't increase the odds as much as one might expect.

Backing up, not all coaches are former pro players, many didn't have much success at the college level, if they even played at all. So the coaching pool looks something more like highschool + college coaches and assistants + former players from various levels. Let's say 32 coaches, 32 GMs, and another 96 coordinator jobs. That's 160 high-level jobs in the NFL, but likely hundreds of thousands of coaching candidates at the lower levels. Most of those coaches are going to be white, at every level, because of socioeconomics where systemic racism plays a part, and well, regular old not-at-all-racist probability.

Oh, and then we have nepotism and run-of-the-mill prejudice, where even if there were two equally qualified and experienced candidates, the job is probably going to the white GM or white head coach's white buddy, aka the "known quantity", more times than not. It's not necessarily a sinister conspiracy where the head of the evil white guy guild explains his plan to prevent black men from getting jobs while stroking a long-haired cat - more likely it's hundreds, thousands of sub-conscience decisions, the sort that affects hiring in every industry.

At the end of the day, the spirit of Rooney rule is to promote equity rather than equality - which I'm sure some here object to. Equality means everyone gets the same opportunities, and in an ideal society there would be no need for something like the Rooney rule, affirmative action, etc. But we don't live in that world - if we did we would at least see non-white coaches at proportional rates to the general racial demographics. Which is to say about 14% black and 9% hispanic and significantly higher if we look at the demographics for NFL cities. Equity requires us to understand that not everyone has the same start in life or the same opportunities, and thus things like the Rooney rule attempt to level the playing field.

So, it's a well-intentioned but ineffective rule. One that attempts to solve or at least improve a complex problem that extends much further than the NFL. It's a little fool-hardy to think that a football league could affect this sort of change. I give it a B+ for sentiment and ambition and a solid F for execution.
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beast
  • beast
  • Select Member Topic Starter
3 years ago

The Rooney rule is ineffective and may do more harm than good on balance, but is it racist? Ehhhh. For something, a policy, rule, institution, etc to be racist it needs to be enforced by and held up by a majority - ie: those in a position to benefit from and ensure the existence of the institution.

Originally Posted by: earthquake 


Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean, but I think I lost of things can be racist without it being the majority.

Example, I'm certain places Blacks and Latinos hate each other and racial to each other, despite Whites being the majority.

Overall, I think the rule was meant to do good, but hasn't resulted that way. I'm thinking the same might be said about this 3rd round Comp rule in a couple of years, where right now 49ers keep getting muliple 3rd round comps as they keep getting "minorities" into head coaches positions, though if you look at their pictures, those "minorities" look like they could be 100% white physically.

Heck sounds like Chiefs offensive coordinator Eric Bieniemy has his contract up and might be looking to switch teams (some speculate he might want to call plays as a promotion of sorts), but most teams already have their offensive coordinator spot filled. Maybe the Packers should consider hiring him as an associate head coach, to get some outside perspective, also to potential get those 3rd round picks should any team offer him a head coaching job.

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wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
3 years ago

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean, but I think I lost of things can be racist without it being the majority.

Example, I'm certain places Blacks and Latinos hate each other and racial to each other, despite Whites being the majority.

Overall, I think the rule was meant to do good, but hasn't resulted that way. I'm thinking the same might be said about this 3rd round Comp rule in a couple of years, where right now 49ers keep getting muliple 3rd round comps as they keep getting "minorities" into head coaches positions, though if you look at their pictures, those "minorities" look like they could be 100% white physically.

Heck sounds like Chiefs offensive coordinator Eric Bieniemy has his contract up and might be looking to switch teams (some speculate he might want to call plays as a promotion of sorts), but most teams already have their offensive coordinator spot filled. Maybe the Packers should consider hiring him as an associate head coach, to get some outside perspective, also to potential get those 3rd round picks should any team offer him a head coaching job.

Originally Posted by: beast 



Don't forget in LA Blacks and Asians hate each other. It's a generalization but Asians consider Blacks lazy while Blacks think of the Asians as greedy. Whenever there is a riot the Blacks target Asian businesses.

I can not see MLF wanting someone on the coaching staff who would detract from his message. It's like having two head chefs with different recipes trying to make the same dish together using different ingredients. It would be a disaster.
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earthquake
3 years ago
I think it's important to separate the racial prejudice of individuals from the sort of racism that the Rooney rule attempts to challenge. When racial prejudice is combined with the power of the majority to oppress, we get systemic racism. Systemic racism absolutely is a factor in why there aren't more people of color in high-level positions in the NFL and much of the business world. Back to an example stated above, even if asian people collectively think black people are lazy, or whatever stereotype we would like to use, they don't have the means to systemically oppress them. That's the critical difference in my mind.

Anyway, I don't think the NFL is necessarily a good institution to tackle systemic racism, nor that they should be obligated to. In my view the responsibility to ensure a fair and equal society falls on the government, not individual businesses. But if the NFL wants to take a crack at it, I appreciate the effort nonetheless.
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Martha Careful (25-Jun) : I would have otherwise admirably served
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dfosterf (25-Jun) : of the folks that run this team. I do not recall Mark Murphy being subject to our vote.
dfosterf (25-Jun) : Ed Policy yay or nay is on the pre-approved ballot that we always approve because we are uninformed and lazy, along with all the rest
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