gbguy20
  • gbguy20
  • Veteran Member Topic Starter
6 years ago

Green Bay appeared to be sellers at the deadline, but is it a signal the season is over or did the Packers actually get better? The Green Bay Packers  are less talented Wednesday than they were Tuesday. No matter what anyone thinks about the hero Jake Kumerow , should he return from IR, the loss of Ty Montgomery  and Ha Ha Clinton-Dix represents a blow to the absolute quality of the Green Bay roster.

It doesn’t mean they’re a worse team.

Take Sunday’s game as a prime example. If Montgomery ’s offensive snaps simply go to Aaron Jones , and his special teams snaps to say Marquez Valdes-Scantling, aren’t the Packers actually closer to beating the Rams  rather than further? Clinton-Dix gave up embarrassingly bad coverage on the touchdown to Josh Reynolds  near the end of the first half. If a player like Jermaine Whitehead  or Tramon Williams  had been playing free safety, guys who are more likely to simply be in the right place at the right time, wouldn’t the Packers defense have looked better?

More to the point, if Josh Jones , with his supreme athletic gifts, had been asked to chase around Todd Gurley  in coverage, wouldn’t he have had a better shot at doing so than Whitehead ? The touchdown and two-point conversions to Gurley were as simple as Whitehead  not being able to track Gurley across the field. For whatever limitations Jones  has, and clearly he has some, his speed isn’t one of them.

Montgomery ’s fumble encapsulated a dual thread line in the trajectory of both players this season. Even if he’ll deny it, players on the team believed Ty’s insistence on taking the ball out stemmed from a lack of touches in the offense, a frustration he voiced on the sideline. Whether it was a “tantrum” or not doesn’t matter. He forced it, making a bad decision in an effort to make a play for the team. Even if it was sub-conscious, it was a selfish decision on Montgomery’s part.

That’s the story of Clinton-Dix’s season. Though he’s made some plays with interceptions, much more often he’s been out of position, freelancing, taking unnecessary risks to make picks, and showing an unwillingness to tackle, presumably in part to avoid injury to anticipation of his free agency (though his poor tackling is hardly a new problem).

If what the Packers want from their free safety is a high-variance playmaker who won’t tackle and won’t always be responsible for his role, how could playing a rookie like Josh Jackson  out of position actively make the team worse? A veteran like Tramon Williams  would almost certainly know where to be and when, plus has better instincts, intelligence and ball skills than HHCD. At worst, Whitehead is a much more reliable tackler and a more agile safety in man coverage. He’s also faster, with quicker feet, plus has experience playing all over this defense. Much like with Micah Hyde , there’s a non-zero chance Clinton-Dix was blocking the best free safety on the team from getting to play.

For whatever matchup advantages Montgomery would have provided in limited snaps, the difference in his production as a runner compared to Jones  or his ability as a pass blocker relative to Jamaal Williams  doesn’t look worth it. Green Bay, suddenly flush with playmakers at the skill positions, looks better off feeding those targets to Davante Adams,  who proved once again Sunday he’s a mismatch against whoever he’s seeing opposite him.

Mike McCarthy mentioned locker room culture as a contributing factor in the trade, and on Wednesday Brian Gutekunst implied that he believes the Packers are better without Montgomery and Clinton-Dix. For whatever talent Ty brought, it’s clear his presence on the team was no longer tenable after Sunday. And Clinton-Dix never became the leader this team hoped; in fact, he openly undermined leadership and talked on the record about having one foot out the door.

“Football is the ultimate team game and taking individual pieces out doesn’t necessarily weaken the team,” Gutekunst said Wednesday.

In this case, there’s a strong case to be made these moves can make the Packers better on the field even if they have less talent. Players who are willing to happily play their roles are more likely to do so effectively, than players who feel they have something to prove and in this case were willing to go beyond the structure of the team to do it.

Having a chip on your shoulder is one thing, but actively undermining the success of the team to meet personal goals is another. Even if that’s not a reasonable explanation for the decisive play Sunday or HHCD’s play over the last few years (a point I won’t concede), at the very least these were high variance players who weren’t able to consistently execute what was asked of them.

Sliding their snaps to players who can simply do their jobs, even if the top-end production isn’t as good, could make this Packers team better overall.



Continue Reading @ Peter_Bukowski 

Peter_Bukowski wrote:



Those of you who have spent the last 24 hours crying about our season being over after yesterday's events should take a moment to dry your tears and read this. Maybe you will understand why many of us are still very hopeful and not packing it in quite yet.
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KRK
  • KRK
  • Veteran Member
6 years ago
See also accountability thread. It IS addition through subtraction.

Football is a game of emotion, Intellect, and trust. If you don’t trust your teammates to put forth the right effort, if you don’t trust your teammates to do the things are supposed to do, you cannot play with confidence and emotion.

These were the right moves.
In Luce tua Videmus Lucem KRK
sschind
6 years ago
I don't think they lose much if anything with Montgomery's departure as I don't think he offered much of anything that can't be replaced by Williams and Jones. In fact if his absence results in more touches for Jones I think it is a good thing. I liked Monty but I don't think he will be missed.

As for Ha Ha, it may be a different story. Not that his skill set was that much more unique than who we have to replace him but I think he may have been out best safety teams get by with only 2 RBs all the time but it is not so easy to do at safety so the discrepancy in talent from top to bottom is usually more pronounced. Losing you top is harder to replace.

I don't see it as a sign that they are giving up at all. Like I said Monty being gone may be an improvement. The same might not be able to be said with Ha Ha from a talent standpoint but I am sure there were other factors involved. Besides that he may have been our best safety but he was far from a great safety. You lose a 10 and replace him with a 6 its a big difference. Not so much if the guy you lose is an 8 or even a 7.
buckeyepackfan
6 years ago

Those of you who have spent the last 24 hours crying about our season being over after yesterday's events should take a moment to dry your tears and read this. Maybe you will understand why many of us are still very hopeful and not packing it in quite yet.

Originally Posted by: gbguy20 



Maybe now those of you who continuously cry about how The Packers are coached and how they play know how those you are talking about feel.

Guttekunst is the GM.
McCarthy is the head coach.
Those 2, along with Mark Murphy are making these decisions .
There is no factional divide .
The goal Every Year is to make the playoffs!
Every year is different!
This year it looks like winning the division is going to be the way.
The Packers are 1/2 game out of 1st place with nine games to play.

Realistically this has became a nine game season .

There is only 1 way ANY team has a chance to win The SB.

They must make the playoffs.

See 2010!


I was addicted to The Hokey Pokey, but I turned myself around!
nerdmann
6 years ago
They have been preaching accountability.
“Winning is not a sometime thing, it is an all the time thing. You don't do things right once in a while…you do them right all the time.”
Nonstopdrivel
6 years ago
Gutekunst specifically said he's not big on sending messages to the locker room and that these moves were about performance and production.
UserPostedImage
wpr
  • wpr
  • Preferred Member
6 years ago

Gutekunst specifically said he's not big on sending messages to the locker room and that these moves were about performance and production.

Originally Posted by: Nonstopdrivel 



Expecting players to play to the best of their ability every down, doesn't THAT send a message?

Asking for a friend.
UserPostedImage
Rockmolder
6 years ago
The biggest thing that doesn't sit well with me is this...

The only reason Montgomery and Clinton-Dix were out there is because you have to play them or something? If Mike believed Aaron Jones getting all the carries would've made his offense better, he most certainly would've done that, right? When Ryan Grant started running in 2007, DeShawn Wynn and Brandon Jackson barely touched the ball anymore.

Same thing goes for Clinton-Dix. If you're really under the impression that his play was horrible, you would've slid over Tramon or brought in Josh Jones a couple of games ago.

So there's really just three explanations for trading these guys away.

1. It's about locker-room presence
2. you value a 4th round pick over the improvement HaHa gave you over a guy like Jones or Williams.
3. Gutekunst thinks McCarthy is completely imcompetent and forces his hand to go with the back-ups/younger guys.

I don't disagree with the trades, per say... Montgomery wasn't adding anything of value and wasn't worth keeping around, looking at the circumstances and I can imagine you want to net a 4th for HHCD now that you still can, but it sounds rather unlikely it's just "about performance and production".

More to the point, if Josh Jones, with his supreme athletic gifts, had been asked to chase around Todd Gurley in coverage, wouldn’t he have had a better shot at doing so than Whitehead? The touchdown and two-point conversions to Gurley were as simple as Whitehead not being able to track Gurley across the field. For whatever limitations Jones has, and clearly he has some, his speed isn’t one of them.



And what's the point here? If we traded Blake Martinez we wouldn't have enough good ILBs left and would've played a safety close to the box instead, most likely. That would've made our defense better suited against that passing play. Conclusion: We should trade away Martinez.
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