beast
7 years ago

I don't think "Redskin"= bad is my opinion

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 



Great! Glad we agree. No reason to read the rest. [cheers]

Another overlooked item is that one Native American tribe used to be known as the redskin tribe because they would wear red face and body paint... that tribe today is called the Delaware Indians (as well as Lenape and other names as well), which as their Delaware name suggest... were relatively close to Washington D.C.

The Delaware Indians controlled lands from south central Delaware, to west at Berks County, Pa, to Delaware County, NY. In other words Philadelphia and New York City were in Delaware Indians land.... and sadly the Delaware Indians were pushed west into Oklahoma, but the last move that the Delaware tribe made was down into then Spanish controlled Texas, along around the Red River and Sabine River... and in spots of both of those rivers are less than an hours way from Dallas.

Hmm, and isn't it interesting, how Philadelphia (Eagles), New York City (Giants) and Dallas (Cowboys) all have NFL teams... and are even in the same division as the Washington Delaware Indians? Opp I mean to say Washington Dela-Wareskins.

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PS: Yes I realize that's probably going to offend Native Americans just as much (or maybe more) but we're talking about Daniel Snyder, the guy who almost always holds a grudge and sometimes tries to get back at you... if you force him to change, he may stay very close to home.
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isocleas2
7 years ago
On one hand i defend free speech to the end, even for horrible groups like the west baptist church (cult). On the other hand Redskin is a slur used against native americans for decades. If its that offensive to them why keep it? Would we tolerate a team called the Washington N-words?

I feel its similar to all the former confederate states calling in bomb threats and protesting the Civil war statues being removed. Some people prefer to hide behind heritage to defend their history of bigotry. Just call a spade a spade. Some of our history including the names we gave our sports teams is pretty shameful and thats why pretty much every team besides the redskins dropped their offensive names a long time ago.
beast
7 years ago

and thats why pretty much every team besides the redskins dropped their offensive names a long time ago.

Originally Posted by: isocleas2 



But that's just completely wrong... as Peta as stated, the "Packers" name is extremely offensive!
Because it's based in meat packing... which is strongly disrespectful to animals and animal lovers everywhere and they strongly suggest, the name to "Six-Pack" for Wisconsin Beer.

Not only that, but this same group that has gone after the Redskins have basically said the KC Chiefs and Cleveland Indians are next to change their ways after they defeat the Redskins. If this was about one single name, and then it'd be completely dropped, I might agree... but the group has stated that the Redskins are just the starting point.

They're using ideals like yours (and mine) to start their wider agenda.

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PackFanWithTwins
7 years ago

But that's just completely wrong... as Peta as stated, the "Packers" name is extremely offensive!
Because it's based in meat packing... which is strongly disrespectful to animals and animal lovers everywhere and they strongly suggest, the name to "Six-Pack" for Wisconsin Beer.

Not only that, but this same group that has gone after the Redskins have basically said the KC Chiefs and Cleveland Indians are next to change their ways after they defeat the Redskins. If this was about one single name, and then it'd be completely dropped, I might agree... but the group has stated that the Redskins are just the starting point.

They're using ideals like yours (and mine) to start their wider agenda.

Originally Posted by: beast 



You are correct, it is not just one name. Chiefs, Indians, Braves, Blackhawks, Apaches, Warriors, Raiders, Flying Arrows, Hatches, Tomahawks to name a few.
The world needs ditch diggers too Danny!!!
Barfarn
7 years ago

the "Packers" name is extremely offensive!

Originally Posted by: beast 



How do you like it 😂😂? Speaking of Chiefs and Indians.

Hopefully you have the ability for empathy. I'm wasn't well-settled on "Chiefs" and "Indians." But i saw a sign at one of protests that read, "we are not your mascots." Then I thought, huh. What if Trump cut a deal to be Czar and allows Russia to invade, kill our military and conquer the USA and death-march survivors to reservations in wastelands.

Obviously, Russia's goal would be to slap the American outta ya. This would begin with physical deprivations and demoralizing propaganda. You and especially your children would be surrounded with symbols that do the opposite of instilling American pride. The text books would talk about the greatness of the Trump/Kushner clan; what a bunch of drunken losers US military men/women were; and the terrorist attacks by George Washington. Though the stories of the US government filled with asswipes would be true. Eventually, each successive generations would sell out a little more, moving away, Russianized and forgetting about the "tribe."

On Sunday we'd see the Moscow Marines play the St Petersburg Patriots for the right to play the Tamrov Trumptards [a derogatory name assigned to Americans like "Redskin"], who had a bye, next Sunday. And you have a guy in a marine uni running around yelling uh-rah with a big caricature of an M-16 and a guy dressed like Paul Revere running around on a horse wearing a statue of liberty headdress waving what used to be the US flag. How'd you like important symbols of your culture used as mascots and mascot props? Would you see that as the Russians honoring Americans? Do ya think that would be effective in helping instill in the subconscious of children and young adults that the old American way was a joke?
beast
7 years ago

How do you like it 😂😂?

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 


I think it was funny, of course, I think Peta making that claim was pretty funny after I realized everyone thinks Peta is a joke and it's going no where!

But I PISSED when I thought that they might be able to get a strong movement going... just like the Redskins are.

Do ya think that would be effective in helping instill in the subconscious of children and young adults that the old American way was a joke?

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 


I'm sorry, but if you see Native Americans as a joke, then you're the one being derogatory.

I don't see a joke, I see a proud warriors that fought hard and many people rally around, which is what Mascots are. They're positive rallying points, for most people. As others have said, change it to their culture and they're happy.

In the 1940s the NCAI created a campaign to eliminate negative stereotyping of Native American people in the media, which was GREAT! And didn't involve going after mascots at all. As with all movements that last long enough, some other movement takes it over and uses it for their different agenda, which is why they're now going after mascots, because someone needed to build their movement and got people to think it's a derogatory to be a mascot, but that's completely wrong.

Look at the Spartans, hell the Vikings, the Celtics... these are great people. That people of today rally around. The only ones making fun of them are the other teams, poking fun at them like we Packers fans poke fun at the Vikings.

Mascots are a great thing, not a joke and not a derogatory.
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Barfarn
7 years ago

I think it was funny, of course, I think Peta making that claim was pretty funny after I realized everyone thinks Peta is a joke and it's going no where!

But I PISSED when I thought that they might be able to get a strong movement going... just like the Redskins are.

I don't see a joke, I see a proud warriors that fought hard and many people rally around, which is what Mascots are. They're positive rallying points, for most people. As others have said, change it to their culture and they're happy.

In the 1940s the NCAI created a campaign to eliminate negative stereotyping of Native American people in the media, which was GREAT! And didn't involve going after mascots at all. As with all movements that last long enough, some other movement takes it over and uses it for their different agenda, which is why they're now going after mascots, because someone needed to build their movement and got people to think it's a derogatory to be a mascot, but that's completely wrong.

Look at the Spartans, hell the Vikings, the Celtics... these are great people. That people of today rally around. The only ones making fun of them are the other teams, poking fun at them like we Packers fans poke fun at the Vikings.

Mascots are a great thing, not a joke and not a derogatory.

Originally Posted by: beast 



America has been conquered by Russia, Americans have been death-marched to wastelands to subsist in squalor and most of our Marines have fallen. And next Sunday you can watch a Russian NFL team exploit the image of our fallen as a mascot? My god! I guess such things are much more sacred, much less trivial, to me.

A mother with 3 Marine children and a husband fallen to the Russians; turns on the TV Sunday to see a caricature of a Marine with an 12 foot long plastic M-16 prop running around yelling Ooh-rah for the Moscow NFL Marines….

Imagine the reaction of that mother; of those few survivors of a Marine rifle company decimated by Russians and having to watch the image of their fallen brothers reduced to a effing mascot and fans wearing Marine uniforms waving little Marine flags in the crowd having fun, cheering for their team.

Random thought: Is a fan wearing, for example, a chief’s headdress the same as being in blackface? [You know that’s offensive to most, right?]

But, Beast Puffs out his chest looks this mother and surviving Marines in the eye and states to them, “you are “completely wrong!” [And by implication] You are fools for not seeing things as I do, me, the way I see it, the right way, the only way, it is about ME and my feelings. Quit your sniveling bitching and recognize that mascots are a “great thing” all the time every time in every situation cause I I I me me me sees it that way.”

You’ve already stated how you feel, we’re done with that! You’ve been asked to consider the feelings of Native Americans and you keep installing yourself in the center of the universe of every argument and IGNORING what NAs might feel. If you cant show empathy in your argument, we’ll be done here. Everything is not about how you feel. It’s an unmitigatingly arrogant and APPALLING argument to present your feelings and then assert all NAs are “completely wrong” for not adopting them.

I’d suggest reading some of Peggy McIntosh’s stuff on “white privilege,” she’s brilliant! And Robin J. DiAngelo’s insights into what she calls "white fragility." She asserts "white privilege” is an “unstable racial equilibrium," which when challenged results in racial stress that triggers a range of defensive responses. These defenses include “argumentation, invalidation, silence, withdrawal and claims of being “attacked” and “unsafe.” While these moves are effective at blocking the challenge and regaining our racial equilibrium, they are also damaging to people of color and prevent the development of skills we need to create a racially just society.”

Also, you gotta understand what mascots are and listen carefully, you’ve stated what you think they are and we’re done with that. Ya gotta quit with the bullshit logic errors, the Strawmen, red herrings and the silly proofs by example. Your misquoting arguments and staging your response around your misquote is stupefyingly outrageous; it is a form personal attack and possibly defamatory. Ask yourself, if a belief requires to be defended by these tactics, what is that belief worth?

The meaning of Mascots has to be put in their HISORICAL CONTEXT and the REALITIES of how the people the mascots represent are treated. Spartans, Vikings and Celtics were not death-marched to wastelands to live in squalor and portrayed by the media and advertisers as savage, dumb and dishonorable, etc., and invidiously discriminated against for over 200 years at the hands of Americans. A sitting US President has not called them the equivalent of “Pocahontas” like Trump did. The places where they live TODAY are not unlawfully targeted for filthy leaking pipelines that KILL. If there was ZERO NA racism; the exploitation of NA images as mascots would be much less a big deal. Spartan, Viking and Celtic are not DEFINED as derogatory. Your argument on this score is patently ignorant.

The etymology of “mascot” originates from the French word “mascotte,” which translates to “lucky charm.”

The examples provided in this thread prove that the American Government and its People were decidedly hostile and invidiously racist toward NAs through at least the mid 1900s and it cant be denied at least some racism remains. If this is the case ever wonder why so many teams acquired NA related mascots? It’s because most mascots try to emulate a positive trait of the team, like in this case a fighting spirit, mascot are NOT adopted to honor the objects of the mascot. Teams EXPLOITED racists images of NA savagery to emulate their “fighting spirit.” Catcalls of “scalp ‘em” or throngs simultaneously doing a tomahawk chop were encouraged. Many of the mascots portraying NAs were/are silly [EG Cleveland’s “Chief Wahoo”]. It was common vernacular in the day to negatively refer to NA male as “Chief Wahoo.” Eventually, several years after Cleveland’s mascot came into existence everyone started calling it “Chief Wahoo.” It is ridiculous and exceedingly ignorant to call this honoring.

Most Native Americans feel they have been victimized when society converts something absolutely sacred to them into a lucky charm, a metaphorical rabbit’s foot. And to further denigrate this majority of a racial group for being “completely wrong” about their feelings is victimizing them again. It shows the propaganda efforts to annihilate NA culture is quite effective; lucky for the world that the NA spirit and the Tribe stand resistant and resolute against 200 years and counting of this amoral chicanery.

PS: Don’t be a sycophant lemming by repeating bullshit propaganda. The NCAI was founded in 1944 and launch the campaign against media stereotyping in 1968 THAT INCLUDED SPORTS TEAMS.
beast
7 years ago
Washington is rocking their mascot to the best of their ability, they can't help that they suck at it.

When something gets you down, you have two choices, let it keep you down, or own it. Bears fans were making fun of Packers fans, calling them cheesehead, and what did they do? They owned it!

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But this word is like the N word... well if you haven't noticed... they owned it!

Heck a lot of college highlight film are loaded with songs that throw the N word all over the place.
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Barfarn
7 years ago

if you haven't noticed... they owned it!

Originally Posted by: beast 



Supposedly a few Blacks and Native Americans have "owned it;" therefore "they" now all own it. This argument is the perfect paradigm of prejudice.

And to equate this to Bear fans using Cheeseheads? Having grown up in Illinois I learned Wisconsinites are called Cheeseheads because of your pervasive dumbshittedness, it has nothing to do with the Packers. Then Wisconsinites fire back with "FIBs" [rolling eyes], proving again their gelatinous brained monosyllabic intellectual inferiority.

DSM V states that sociopaths are incapable of empathy!

Anyone thinking like this REALLY needs to read about White Privilege and White Fragility [see authors above]...This argument is as "fragile white" as any can be.
beast
7 years ago

Supposedly a few Blacks and Native Americans have "owned it;" therefore "they" now all own it. This argument is the perfect paradigm of prejudice
...
Anyone thinking like this REALLY needs to read about White Privilege and White Fragility [see authors above]...This argument is as "fragile white" as any can be.

Originally Posted by: Barfarn 



And now your being huge hypocrite... as your claiming to be against singling out a culture and yet that's exactly what you just did. But you're rationality that it's okay for you to do it, but not for others... and that's completely wrong.

If you're allowed to do it (which you are, as you just did) than it's fair game for all.

The door can't be open for you to do it, and then ban all others from doing it.
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