Christmas questions· Page 2

texaspackerbacker
Veteran Member

11 years ago

This should be a simply glorious and non-controversial topic - and would be, except for the pathetic sad sack loser in here who constantly disrespects anything American and/or anything Christian.

There are a lot of grains of truth here - celebrating Christ's birth in general rather than the details of His birthday - the Bible seems to take a dim view of birthdays anyway, as Herod's daughter's illustrates. Dakota, as blind squirrels are reputed to do with acorns, did actually get one thing right: Jesus's earthly birth was in the Fall of the year. The shepherds in that part of the world bring there sheep in around Oct. 1, as it is too cold. Jesus's 3 1/2 year ministry began on His 30th birthday and ended with His crucifixion and resurrection in the Spring of the year. So He had to have been born in the Fall. The December thing apparently came from the early Christian Church trying to gain favor with sun-worshiping pagans, whose big time is the Winter Solstice - when their sun god begins to regain strength.

And of course, it is NOT about the Christian Church organizations, most of which get more details wrong than right about a lot of things other than Christmas. It IS, however, about the reality of Christ, the Son of God, who was sacrificed by God for our sins, and rose from the dead - a fact noted by objective and recognized Roman and ironically, Jewish historians.

Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.

Rockmolder
Honored Member

11 years ago

#12

This should be a simply glorious and non-controversial topic - and would be, except for the pathetic sad sack loser in here who constantly disrespects anything American and/or anything Christian.

Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker

Worded differently, for a topic to be glorious, people have to agree with your point of view on Christianity and 'Murica.

It's not like Dakota came into this topic to troll everyone, he's just making some points.

On topic, this is far from my point of expertise. I do know, however, that Christmas over here has, in essence, little to do with Christianity anymore. Of course, churches do organize a lot of activities, have a big mass, some more television exposure, but it's really more about food, drinking and having a good time.

I assume it's pretty much the same over there.

texaspackerbacker
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#13

Originally Posted by: Rockmolder

You - based on your words - are looking at Christianity and Christians, as well as obviously the way you are looking at America, AS AN OUTSIDER. So your evenhandedness - which amounts to negativity when set up beside the facts of history - is understandable.

I assume, however, that you have a pretty good grasp of history over the last century or so in your part of the world anyway, and I further assume you know at least from current affairs about comparative religions - the teachings and practices. So based on those assumptions, I ask you, what do you think the world would be like - or just Europe if you prefer - if any other nation than America had the power we have and if any other religion was the basis for policies and actions of those in position to either do great good or great evil? Sure, there are and have been bad Christians - meaning members of the organized group, not so much Christians by belief, but compare to what other religions are out there - the good versus harm taught and advocated, and the good versus harm actually done.

Can you still defend your negativity?

Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.

Wade
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#14

Do you actually believe I struggle with faith in God with the life I've had? If that were true - I would have left this world a long fricken time ago. I question if all you thumpers measure up to the faith I've proven day in and day out. I'm an admitted vulgar man, but I know right from wrong and good from evil cause I've walked on both roads and I know each side when I see it.

Originally Posted by: DakotaT

If you are secure in your faith, even better. But may people do struggle with it. And, IMO, we do more damage to that faith when we insist on particular "religious" doctrines, on particular human beliefs as a precondition to faith.

To me, God knows when the faith is "real enough", when it is sufficient to His desire. But I can't. I can only try my best to do my best. And as far as others are concerned, I believe it is important to tell them what I believe. Not because I am correct, but because I believe God wants me to bear witness to Him and His mercy. Because I believe that all we can do is put our faith in Him.

I don't believe that is an excuse for being accountable for one's actions in this world. I believe that because even if I live the best life I could, even if I am some combination of the good parts of Mother Theresa, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Martin Luther, and my late father, my own sinfulness damns me in the next. Or would, without Him having done what He did.

That's what I believe. It isn't what I *know* like I know the Declaration of Independence was signed in 1776 or like I know that the average standard of living in America today far exceeds the average standard of living 100 years ago. It's merely what I believe.

I now try never to get into the business of "what faith requires". That's not my job. That's God's. I merely try to suggest to people that faith of some kind is essential. For me the question is one of existence (if you don't have Faith, you only have the Law and you fail with respect to the Law) not quality (if you don't have *this* faith, God will judge you the way you don't wish to be judged).

My resolution doesn't always work. I don't claim to be able to resist the tendency I have to preach and lecture. But I do try not to use that tendency as an opportunity to judge and opine on the quality of other's faith.

If Jesus was no more than a great teacher and philosopher, then I am mistaken in my faith. And, come the Day, I may pay for my mistake. But while I don't understand the whole Trinity thing, I do believe Jesus was more than just a good man. And barring some unforeseen loss of that belief (which won't come through reason), I don't expect to change my mind on this.

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)

Wade
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#15

One last distinction which may or may help. Religion means worrying about what Christians do, don't do, should do. Faith means believing what Christ did or didn't do.

Judging the worthiness of God (matter of faith) is not equivalent of judging the worthiness of God's believers (matter of religion).

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)

texaspackerbacker
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#16

Originally Posted by: Wade

True, but discussing it in those terms with non-believers is difficult if not impossible. They just aren't going to even accept your starting point - reality of God/validity of our belief.

That's why I prefer to frame it as comparative - "by their fruits, you shall know them" - both our teachings and the actions of our true believers compared to ....... anybody else somebody wants to compare us and ours to. And of course, if/when some particularly bullheaded opponent wants to shift the discussion to "those rich assholes sitting in the pews", he needs to be reminded that they may not be synonymous with Christian BELIEVERS.

Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.

Cheesey
Preferred Member

11 years ago

#17

What if he was just a teacher and philosopher and not the miracle man and water walker - would that destroy your entire existence and belief system? Would you be able to face the day without someone else taking your sins? To me, I see people use Jesus as this huge crutch and not be accountable for themselves.

I see lots of people claim to be Christians, so why have let Christmas become a disgusting display of materialism instead of actually loving one another?

Originally Posted by: DakotaT

Well, I believe He was God in the flesh, so your question is not applicable. I believe the Bible is the word of God.
As far as Jesus being a "crutch", I don't see it that way at all. As the Bible says, being born again does NOT give you a license to sin. Do you believe that God doesn't know what is in someone's heart? You can't fool Him. And no matter how hard I try, I can't be perfect while I am here. I sin. EVERYONE does. Just "claiming" to be christian won't get you to Heaven.
Only accepting Christ as saviour can do that.
And someone that does that with the idea that "Now I can do whatever I want and I don't have to worry" is probably not saved in the first place, as they are trying to pull the wool over God's eyes. And HE knows that.

I believe there will be tears in Heaven, as the Bible says. We may be looking around for people we think will be there, only to realize they arn't there.

As I have said many times, the ONLY difference between christians and non christians is, christians are forgiven.
You can be a good person and end up in Hell, because God says the ONLY way to Heaven is through accepting Christ as saviour. Even ONE sin seperates us from a Holy God.
And if it's Christ and ANYTHING else, then there was no reason for Him to come and die on the cross to take our sins.
Take a look around and you will see horrible things people do to each other in today's world. They have removed God from almost every aspect of life, and it shows by the murders, rapes, and over all degenarate way people are today.
I try to do right, and I do it to please my heavenly father. I know I will fail, I will sin. But I know that if I repent and honestly try I am guarenteed His forgiveness.
If you put your faith in man, or "religion", you WILL be let down. The Bible says that as well.
As far as the way the world is with materialism, man has done that. Greed drives alot of people. That's sad, but that is the way of the world.

Rockmolder
Honored Member

11 years ago

#18

Originally Posted by: texaspackerbacker

When set up beside the facts of history, slavery was the best way to get your business booming untill a relatively short time ago.

When set up beside the facts of history, African-Americans were the lesser race 'till just a year or 50 ago.

I'm not saying that Christianity is evil or anything, but times do change and I feel like I'm more of the median now than the outsider.

At least, over here, where 45% were Christian, 4% muslim and 45% had no religion in 2010.

That said, again, I don't have a problem with religion, Christianity or America for that matter.

And I certainly don't feel that I'm slanted negatively towards any of those groups.

Lastly, had America and Europe been a completely muslim society, with the middle east being Christian, you would've been pro-Muslim and would've been shouting about how ridiculous the Christian way of life was, how the crusades were attrocious and how Christians were all extremist monsters.

It's just what milking machine you're hooked up to.

Most likely you'd be shouting over here about how their women don't wear enough clothes, just like you do about gay marriage and all the other things you don't really have any business trying to control right now, practicing a religion for yourself.

Again, nothing against any religions, are they give people a lot of stability and faith in times of need, but it's not a race to the nr. 1 religion. I don't believe there's one truth that I have to believe, picked randomly because of what continent I was born on.

Rockmolder
Honored Member

11 years ago

#19

Take a look around and you will see horrible things people do to each other in today's world. They have removed God from almost every aspect of life, and it shows by the murders, rapes, and over all degenarate way people are today.
I try to do right, and I do it to please my heavenly father. I know I will fail, I will sin. But I know that if I repent and honestly try I am guarenteed His forgiveness.
If you put your faith in man, or "religion", you WILL be let down. The Bible says that as well.
As far as the way the world is with materialism, man has done that. Greed drives alot of people. That's sad, but that is the way of the world.

Originally Posted by: Cheesey

If you murder, rape and do other things you're implying, you very likely would've done that as a Christian, as well.

Actually, according to studies I've read, a lot of serial killers are actually Christian.

And still, that has nothing to do with it.

It's the psychological things that factor in the most. Abusive parents, alcoholic parents, lack of parents, high pressure as a child, extreme forms of bullying etc.

texaspackerbacker
Veteran Member

11 years ago

#20

Originally Posted by: Rockmolder

Your paragraph about Christianity and Islam trading places illustrates my point completely. Hell Yeah, if I was one of them, I'd probably be right there in the front of the line committing acts or terrorism, or at very least empathizing and sympathizing - because THAT'S WHAT THAT RELIGION TEACHES (and practices) - as opposed to what our Christian teachings are. And conversely (the key point of my post which you ignored), what would life be like in our part of the world if it was Muslim-dominated? The stuff you mentioned - gay marriage, women's clothes, etc. would be just the tip of the iceberg of taboos. Some good Christians may bellyache a bit about those things, but we aren't out there cutting off heads, doing honor killings, among the whole assortment of other atrocities.

As for the "continent you were born on", aside from choosing that because of your assumed familiarity with it, Europe stands out as benefiting from that comparison I cited of Christian culture and values versus ...... I said "others", you said "Muslims". Or would you disagree with that? Would you even be allowed to have a discussion criticizing the dominant religion if that religion was ...... other/Muslim?

Negativity about the Crusades is revisionist history, although I have to admit, the primary defense of them is the validity of OUR religion - which you of course deny.

Slavery was/is far from a Christian dominated issue - (I did say "believers" as opposed to group members in my post). The suppliers were Africans themselves; The wholesalers were Muslim; The transporters were ....... where are you from again? hahaha - Dutch sea captains; And even the ultimate slave owners were only a small minority in the U.S. - the huge majority ending up in the Cariibbean areas ruled by Europeans.

Lastly, I didn't say you claimed Christianity was "evil"; I just said you were evenhanded about it - when the facts of history and comparative religion suggest anything but evenhandedness being justified.

Lastly again hahaha, as a token move back to the original topic, anybody can celebrate Ramadan or Kwanzaa or Festivus or whatever or for that matter, none of the above, here - and I assume your Christian dominated place also. Just try celebrating Christmas in that other religion dominated part of the world or even that "none of the above" thing. You might lose your head.

Expressing the Good Normal Views of Good Normal Americans.
If Anything I Say Smacks of Extremism, Please Tell Me EXACTLY What.

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