DakotaT
  • DakotaT
  • Select Member Topic Starter
12 years ago

I think Formo's point is that while the person responsible for the crimes themselves and the people enabling and allowing it are pretty close in terms of their deserved punishment in hell, people seem to be spending a lot more of their time ranting about Paterno than they are Sandusky at this point. Yes, part of that is that the lie has recently been torn off of the Paterno legacy. But let's not lose focus on the perp either.

Originally Posted by: Porforis 



No, this is more about tearing down the person regarded as a saint. This man reached demigod status in Happy Valley, and because he didn't have the courage to face the scandal, he deserves to be torn down - even in death.

Sandusky faced trial and gets to spend the rest of his life in prison. There are plenty more to point fingers at in the Penn State family - and in time that will all come out.

The people that we shouldn't lose sight of are the victims.
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Wade
  • Wade
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12 years ago

I get the vitriol towards JoePa. I really do. But I can't believe people's reactions towards him are just as harsh OR WORSE than their reactions to Sandusky. McQueary was the fellow that caught Sandusky in the act, and not a single word is said about him. But JoePa? He MUST BURN!

The axe should fall on every single leader at PSU. But I don't think giving the football program the 'Death Penalty' is the best repercussion.

Originally Posted by: Formo 



I guess I see it this way. Sandusky is like a rabid dog. I have no problem with a rabid dog being put down (though I would cry forever if he were mine), and I have no problem with Sandusky being institutionalized forever. But, in part, Sandusky's problem is likely due to a genetic or psychiatric short-circuit in his brain that he may not have full cognitive responsibility for. When I hear Sandusky's interviews or read his public statements, I cringe and want to vomit. But there's a part of me that also cringes because he doesn't seem to see what's wrong. Unlike everyone else above him who seem to have been driven by the PR "lets spin this and minimize/avoid the damage" mentality, Sandusky comes off not so much as someone who denies his actions as someone who thinks those actions were out of love. Sandusky, IMO, has done evil things that need severe punishment of the sort he has been meted by the court system and the court of public opinion. But he's also clearly sick and not right and the head.

Whereas with Paterno and the rest of the Penn State muckety-mucks, they made a conscious decision to cover-up. To try to manipulate that court of public opinion. Whereas Sandusky should have known better, but didn't, they knew better. And still did what they did.

That, IMO, DOES make them worse in very real sense.

Yes, Sandusky did horrible things and greatly traumatized young people who should never have to be so traumatized. Sandusky's illness should not absolve him of the punishment he gets. But its the manipulative, unconscionable actions of people like Paterno, Schultz, Curley, and Spanier, and how they affect the actions like those of the people below them all the way down to the janitors, that ensure that the victims of child sexual abuse are not just traumatized, but traumatized for life far to an extent far greater than they have to be.



And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Formo
12 years ago

Yes, I'm sure you're right Formo. [palm]

Let's examine what St. Joe did here. He knew years ago what Sandusky was doing, and chose to protect the program. In doing so, many other little boys had their innocence descicrated by an animal, as Joe had his own statue erected.

If you can't see the horror in that, than I truly feel sorry for you. Fuck Penn State and their football program, and Joe will be judged in the court of public opinion.

I'm not really a big believer in defining moments because people make mistakes and should be given second chances. Joe Paterno did not make a mistake - he made a calculated decision to protect his reputation and that is appalling to most people.

He died too early because he should be indicted himself.

Originally Posted by: Dakotat 



Continuing your crusade to prove your stupidity, I see. (You know I love you).

You missed my point, but that's ok. I forgive you. Just read the first sentence I wrote again, and if you still don't get my point, just continue re-reading it until you do.
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Thanks to TheViking88 for the sig!!
dfosterf
12 years ago

I guess I see it this way. Sandusky is like a rabid dog. I have no problem with a rabid dog being put down (though I would cry forever if he were mine), and I have no problem with Sandusky being institutionalized forever. But, in part, Sandusky's problem is likely due to a genetic or psychiatric short-circuit in his brain that he may not have full cognitive responsibility for. When I hear Sandusky's interviews or read his public statements, I cringe and want to vomit. But there's a part of me that also cringes because he doesn't seem to see what's wrong. Unlike everyone else above him who seem to have been driven by the PR "lets spin this and minimize/avoid the damage" mentality, Sandusky comes off not so much as someone who denies his actions as someone who thinks those actions were out of love. Sandusky, IMO, has done evil things that need severe punishment of the sort he has been meted by the court system and the court of public opinion. But he's also clearly sick and not right and the head.

Whereas with Paterno and the rest of the Penn State muckety-mucks, they made a conscious decision to cover-up. To try to manipulate that court of public opinion. Whereas Sandusky should have known better, but didn't, they knew better. And still did what they did.

That, IMO, DOES make them worse in very real sense.

Yes, Sandusky did horrible things and greatly traumatized young people who should never have to be so traumatized. Sandusky's illness should not absolve him of the punishment he gets. But its the manipulative, unconscionable actions of people like Paterno, Schultz, Curley, and Spanier, and how they affect the actions like those of the people below them all the way down to the janitors, that ensure that the victims of child sexual abuse are not just traumatized, but traumatized for life far to an extent far greater than they have to be.


Originally Posted by: wade 



See? I told you folks this shit on day one. Some pronounced me a dick for creaming JoePa.

Wade (as usual) has it so very right.

Zero2Cool
12 years ago

See? I told you folks this shit on day one. Some pronounced me a dick for creaming JoePa.

Wade (as usual) has it so very right.

Originally Posted by: dfosterf 



I don't think anyone said much in any light towards you, personally. I think you were speaking more on opinion than fact so I don't really know what you're pounding your chest here for. But its early and surely this won't be the first time I'm confused today! haha

When I heard there was a statue of Joe Paterno, I was glad to learn they were taking it down. I believe it was removed over the weekend.

I think Joe Paterno could have been viewed as more of a hero if he had immediately did the right thing upon learning of the incidents. Instead, it appears he worried more about self preservation.
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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
12 years ago
Personally, I think erecting statues, naming buildings, etc. after still-living people is a horrible idea. Smacks of idolatry, for one. And even if, somehow, we could create this as an exception to the Great Commandment, I think it encourages people to do things for the wrong reason.* If you have to get public adulation to do the right thing, then you're a loser; and if you're rich and have to get public adulation to do the right thing, you're worse than a loser.

Oh, wait a minute, that is what Joe P turned out to be, isn't it?

*Come to think of it, I don't think we should be erecting statues or naming buildings after individuals after all.**

**Except for "Provo's Privy" (applause to the first person who gets the 'artistic' reference; no Googling, please).
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
Pack93z
12 years ago
The only part of the sanctions that I like.. that the 60 million dollar fine is going towards assistance in supporting the prevention of cases like this.

That and the vacating of the wins.. however that really means little other than fluffy record book stuff.

But if the NCAA doesn't think that this is going to trickle down to the students of Penn State and the taxpayers of PA they are ignorant.

Revenues are going to be severely reduced for the football program.. which per the NCAA (if we believe them) are used to fund other sports programs and overall tuition fees. So if that money disappears.. whom does it effect? Ahh.. the students of course... or the tax payers of the state to recoup the reduced revenue.

Scholarship reduction truly affects students.. not much more than that.. other than the quality of the team itself.



I have to laugh though at the Ed Ray reference to the NCAA core values.. of fairness and respect. This is the same panel that supports the sham that is currently the football BCS format and now this end all be all of the 4 team playoff.

The NCAA and the conferences.. these dog and pony show types like Emmert and Ray.. they give only a shit about the overall revenues that they pull into the NCAA and that fill the high ranking officers at the NCAA and Conference levels that have milked the system for hundreds of millions a year.

60 Million dollars in gross revenue per a caliber school like Penn State.. seriously.. and they only trickle down budget tight stipends to the players generating that revenue. And that is to be viewed as fair?

Bullshit.

These bastards are the poster boys for putting sports ahead of academics.. or more like putting their pocketbooks from their ivory towers ahead of the student athletes supporting their existence.

This was a PR move.. nothing more.. to protect the integrity of their cash cow.


Mark Emmert Annual Salary for instance.. 1.6m per year . Per 2010 Tax records.

A little more.. averaging out the total revenue taking in by top 30 programs.. 11.48% of all revenues are used for Scholarships.. 32.46 % to the coaches.. but in those other expenses (you know buried in with travel expenses) are those executives, conference dues and NCAA contributions.... 31.64% . Buildings and Grounds make the remaining percentage of 15.61.. the remainder is net profit.
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
dhazer
12 years ago
The problem with the 60 Million dollar fine is that they are raising the tuition. I talked to a girl that goes there today and she said she was already informed that an increase will be made for all student tuition. How is that fair so the ones that are being punished are the kids that had nothing to do with this whole thing. But then again why should I think it would be different, after all we are in the US were the rich get away with everything.

Just Imagine this for the next 6-9 years. What a ride it will be 🙂 (PS, Zero should charge for this)
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Zero2Cool
12 years ago
First, I don't really know all the details to this, but it seems odd to me how this punishment was levied so harshly to Penn State. I agree with the 98-2011 wins being removed, the four year bowl ban, but the 60 million dollar fine doesn't make much sense to me.

WOW! I just looked this up to get more information to base an opinion on and came across this. "NCAA president Mark Emmert didn't punish former president Graham Spanier, former athletic director Tim Curley or former vice president Gary Schultz at all during Monday's dog-and-pony-show press conference in Indianapolis."


Sandusky, Paterno, Curley and Schultz are the ones who should be punished.



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Wade
  • Wade
  • Veteran Member
12 years ago

The problem with the 60 Million dollar fine is that they are raising the tuition. I talked to a girl that goes there today and she said she was already informed that an increase will be made for all student tuition. How is that fair so the ones that are being punished are the kids that had nothing to do with this whole thing. But then again why should I think it would be different, after all we are in the US were the rich get away with everything.

Originally Posted by: dhazer 



Tuition increases aren't made that quickly. They are made after a long process with input from multiple committees of faculty and administration as set up in already-established college governance procedures, and, in the case of a state university, the legislative budget process. Any increase for the upcoming school year was made over the last several months, long before any NCAA fine was imposed. Unless this 60 million fine was expected back in December or even earlier, there's no way this current year's increase was "because" of the fine.

As for next year, there is no doubt in my mind that tuition will be going up at Penn State next year, just as there is no doubt in my mind that it will be going up at virtually every university country-wide. The schools that aren't increasing are going to be rare exceptions -- higher ed is so effed up right now, and the mentality of those making money decisions is that this is only going to be solved by a combination of (a) cutting programs/services and (b) raising tuition. The only places that won't be playing by that rule are those which are rich enough not to depend on either tuition revenues or government monies -- e.g. the Ivies and stinking-rich undergraduate schools like Grinnell, Swarthmore, and such.

Now, I have no doubt that the decision-makers will find a way to blame anyone they can. That's why virtually every one of those tuition increase letters received by students and their parents will continue to blame "higher costs" and "the economy" rather than past mismanagement (even though the reality is that a downturn in the economy is almost always accompanied by an increase in demand for higher ed.

And so I would not be surprised if the Penn State administration uses the occasion of the NCAA/Big Ten sanctions as a scapegoat in what they tell people -- in fact I'd be surprised if they didn't. It's too easy a way to distract the increase-payers-who-are-also-fans from their real responsibilities over the way the University raises and spends its money.




And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:2 (NKJV)
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