Cheesey
15 years ago

Is it being negative or looking for the logic behind the optimism?

I don't think Dom Capers can turn this defense around because I think their is a talent problem. I worry about our aging corners. Harris's decline has started and C-Wood is bound to slow down sometime. I don't know what Raji will bring to the table as a rookie or how Kampman will adjust. Will Hawk break out? Will Barnett be at 100% and improve on his past mistakes?

Their are lots of ????? on Defense. If you put a tarp over a leaky roof does it solve the problem or just make it look like you made an attempt to do so. Sanders was a god to most in 07 and now he's the fall guy. I think the talent, and lack of depth is the problem.

"dd80forever" wrote:


You could say those same things about ANY team. Look at Chicago's defense. Do you honestly believe it's as good as it was 3 years ago? I saw where you think they are a #4 team.
But you think the Packers can't improve?
I think they can, and WILL improve. There are full scale changes being made that should address alot of the problems from last season. I don't think what they have done is a "tarp" thrown over a leaking roof.
At least thats how i feel.
You of course are free to keep the negative vibes flowing.
It helps to even things out here.
Makes up for all of us fans that think our chances are pretty good this year.
Honestly.....if i felt as you did, I wouldn't even want to watch any of the games.
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Dulak
15 years ago

Is it being negative or looking for the logic behind the optimism?

I don't think Dom Capers can turn this defense around because I think their is a talent problem. I worry about our aging corners. Harris's decline has started and C-Wood is bound to slow down sometime. I don't know what Raji will bring to the table as a rookie or how Kampman will adjust. Will Hawk break out? Will Barnett be at 100% and improve on his past mistakes?

Their are lots of ????? on Defense. If you put a tarp over a leaky roof does it solve the problem or just make it look like you made an attempt to do so. Sanders was a god to most in 07 and now he's the fall guy. I think the talent, and lack of depth is the problem.

"dd80forever" wrote:



Those are interesting questions ...

I cant see how our defense will be worse when compared to the last 1/2 of the season of last year.

We should be getting 2 starters back; have 2 1st round picks in the mix up (including the #1 DT in the draft) ... and it appears a heck of a LB in matthews. We also got some other guys from a corner back the steelers safety and a few other guys.

ya woodson and harris could have issues this year but even if they did I see our addittions more then making up for that fact.

From the first interview that dom gave as a packers DC I was impressed with him. Assuming this attitude transfers to his coaching I can see great things coming.

Our D is the thing I am most pumped about this year - well and seeing how our new fullback and Oline (we'll see) does.

remember kampman will still have his handdown 50%~ of the time at least. capers said 3 year transition but who knows maybe if the guys catch on they will do more plays as a full 3-4
longtimefan
15 years ago

Is it being negative or looking for the logic behind the optimism?

I don't think Dom Capers can turn this defense around because I think their is a talent problem. I worry about our aging corners. Harris's decline has started and C-Wood is bound to slow down sometime. I don't know what Raji will bring to the table as a rookie or how Kampman will adjust. Will Hawk break out? Will Barnett be at 100% and improve on his past mistakes?

Their are lots of ????? on Defense. If you put a tarp over a leaky roof does it solve the problem or just make it look like you made an attempt to do so. Sanders was a god to most in 07 and now he's the fall guy. I think the talent, and lack of depth is the problem.

"dd80forever" wrote:




Dom has proven he can get the D to turn around in his 1st season with a team


click me 


When Capers took over the 25th-ranked Jaguars defense in 1999, the Jaguars moved up 21 spots in the rankings and led the league in scoring defense.

And when he changed the Dolphins to a 3-4 in 2006, they went from 18th to fourth in the defensive rankings.

15 years ago



- Our LBers had a pretty rough time; missed assignement or poor tackles

- injuries that had a big impact. Jenkins and Barnett

"pack93z" wrote:



That there still remains a mystery why Moss still has a freaking job yet today.

If there was infighting amongst the Defensive staff.. how isn't he a problem in that infighting.

Scheme or not, the linebackers played tentative reactive ball.. not what I expect to see out of a hard nosed defense.. getting beat is one thing.. getting beat before you react is another.. piss on the scheme.. make a damn play for your ball club.

The play of the linebackers last couple of years at times was embarrassing.. if those inside backers struggle this year.. you better believe I will be back upon the criticizing Moss train.

But I have confidence in the ability of Capers and the collective team that has been assembled around him.. if there is a problem in the coaching style yet in the middle.. I fully expect it to be resolved post haste.

"Dulak" wrote:



You know, losing Jenkins and not having Harrell healthy (again) hurt us, I think. When your D-line doesn't perform up to par, the linebackers don't know what gaps to shoot or cover, and they probably get more and more "reactive" as the season moves on. It will be VERY interesting to see how they play this year. I expect us all to be very happy again that we have Barnett on our team. He is vastly underrated by most fans nowadays, imo.
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ILikeThePackers39
15 years ago

Is it being negative or looking for the logic behind the optimism?

I don't think Dom Capers can turn this defense around because I think their is a talent problem. I worry about our aging corners. Harris's decline has started and C-Wood is bound to slow down sometime. I don't know what Raji will bring to the table as a rookie or how Kampman will adjust. Will Hawk break out? Will Barnett be at 100% and improve on his past mistakes?

Their are lots of ????? on Defense. If you put a tarp over a leaky roof does it solve the problem or just make it look like you made an attempt to do so. Sanders was a god to most in 07 and now he's the fall guy. I think the talent, and lack of depth is the problem.

"dd80forever" wrote:



Sander's was a "God to most in 07." ?????? What? Are you serious?? I don't remember hardly anyone thinking Sander's was "God." I never really liked him and if you need any proof just see the 2007 NFC Championship game. He was rigid, un-creative, and conservative. Good guy, just not flexible enough.

I think you're giving life to something that doesn't exist there. I remember people giving him props when the defense played a good game, but the general consensus was fairly negative in the forums I attended.

Adding an innovative and experienced defensive coordinator along with some fresh young talent cannot help but at least slightly improve one of the lower ranked defenses in the league. That in itself wins another game or two over last year, not counting Rodger's and others learning curves improving.

I'm not saying there's not worries, but your above argument is just non-sense.

"doddpower" wrote:




Are you serious? Everyone was in love with the Def. in 07.

"dd80forever" wrote:




I wasn't - I liked the players for the most part (some more than others), but I felt from day 1 with Sanders that he couldn't run that defense half as well as Bates did. I hated the lack of creativity and blitzing, and I was never even close to satisfied with the run defense. To me, it was like he didn't even understand the D and was just calling sets from a note card.

As far as some fans having blind optimism, I think the case can be made that your own vision isn't as clear as you'd like to claim it is.

First: Injuries. You may not think that Cullen Jenkins is very good - I don't know, I've not heard your opinion. IMO, the guy is and was the lynchpin for that defense. He's going to be back. As will our entire LB corps, which have been augmented with a kid who should be a strong competitor out of the gate. There's even indication that our own seldom-seen kid Harrell will be heathy, and we'll finally get to see what the kid can do. Am I using injuries as an excuse? Nope - what I am saying is that getting those guys we lost last season to injury back on the field is a reason for some optimism.

Additions: No, we don't know that Raji will come in and be the beast we need in the middle. No team who drafts a player KNOWS that they're getting what they paid for - Minnesota didn't KNOW AP would work out, and I remember constant hand-wringing about whether or not he was injury-prone his entire rookie year. But we can reasonably infer that the kid's measurables, in addition to the fact that he dominated in a big way against top-tier competition in college, indicate that he has good chance to be what we need. Same with Matthews - sure, he could flame out, but there's reason to hope that he'll be what we need on that right side. Again, it's reason, IMO, for some optimism.

Secondary: Yes, they're getting older. But I'm lost as to why you think Woodson is teetering on the precipice when he had a career year last year while playing with a broken toe - that's a little beyond me, and IMO it's also overly pessimistic. Al isn't everything he used to be, but nobody's going to work harder than he is, and he's still better than 90% of the other corners in our division. Williams could be due for a breakout season, as well, and we've got good youth improving behind them. Bigby is a question mark: If he starts the year out healthy, there's a chance we'll see a return to form, and if not we've picked up another guy who knows the scheme. Collins is a pro-bowler, so if you don't like him I can't help you there.

My point is: It's not blind optimism. There are plenty of indicators that this defense will be, at worst, some improvement over last year's defense. Are there question marks? Of course, and anyone here who looks you in the eye with a straight face and guarantees a top-whatever-ranked defense is probably being very optimistic. But to paint this as some pie-in-the-sky optimism based on nothing but faith in some guy in a suit is, to me, ridiculously pessimistic.

There's room in the middle, where the sensible folks sit.
blank
zombieslayer
15 years ago

Is it being negative or looking for the logic behind the optimism?

I don't think Dom Capers can turn this defense around because I think their is a talent problem. I worry about our aging corners. Harris's decline has started and C-Wood is bound to slow down sometime. I don't know what Raji will bring to the table as a rookie or how Kampman will adjust. Will Hawk break out? Will Barnett be at 100% and improve on his past mistakes?

Their are lots of ????? on Defense. If you put a tarp over a leaky roof does it solve the problem or just make it look like you made an attempt to do so. Sanders was a god to most in 07 and now he's the fall guy. I think the talent, and lack of depth is the problem.

"longtimefan" wrote:




Dom has proven he can get the D to turn around in his 1st season with a team


click me 


When Capers took over the 25th-ranked Jaguars defense in 1999, the Jaguars moved up 21 spots in the rankings and led the league in scoring defense.

And when he changed the Dolphins to a 3-4 in 2006, they went from 18th to fourth in the defensive rankings.

"dd80forever" wrote:



Led the league in scoring defense? I love that.

Woody, Nick, and everyone else are scorers. EVERY time they get INTs, there's a good chance they score a TD.

Thanks for finding these. I do think our DBs are top tier. Our problem is our DL. This draft hopefully solved this.

I also hated our DCs last year. We failed to make adjustments. You cannot beat top tier NFL teams if you can't adjust defensively. Dom should fix that.

DD80 did have a good point about talent missing, but hopefully this year it will be different. I think the DL failing last year brought down the entire D by exhausting our LBs to the point they looked useless (but the true blame goes to the DL for not doing their jobs).

What we need - Jenkins to stay healthy, Raji to prove he's the best DT of the '09 draft, and for Bustin to prove he's not a bust. Bustin doesn't even have to be good. He just needs to play 16 games and contribute enough to let the other DL teammates some rest.

We'll need some sacks. in '07, we got 36. In '08, we dropped to 27. Dom's scheme should contribute, and of course with Jenkins healthy, that sack total should go up too. Knock on wood. We'll need healthy defensive players in '09.
My man Donald Driver
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2010 will be seen as the beginning of the new Packers dynasty. 🇹🇹 🇲🇲 🇦🇷
Pack93z
15 years ago

Is it being negative or looking for the logic behind the optimism?

I don't think Dom Capers can turn this defense around because I think their is a talent problem. I worry about our aging corners. Harris's decline has started and C-Wood is bound to slow down sometime. I don't know what Raji will bring to the table as a rookie or how Kampman will adjust. Will Hawk break out? Will Barnett be at 100% and improve on his past mistakes?

Their are lots of ????? on Defense. If you put a tarp over a leaky roof does it solve the problem or just make it look like you made an attempt to do so. Sanders was a god to most in 07 and now he's the fall guy. I think the talent, and lack of depth is the problem.

"longtimefan" wrote:




Dom has proven he can get the D to turn around in his 1st season with a team


click me 


When Capers took over the 25th-ranked Jaguars defense in 1999, the Jaguars moved up 21 spots in the rankings and led the league in scoring defense.

And when he changed the Dolphins to a 3-4 in 2006, they went from 18th to fourth in the defensive rankings.

"dd80forever" wrote:



To expand upon it.. Thread about Kampman into said defense... 

I am so jacked about this defenses "potential" I could suit up today and just hit something.. lol.. then pay for it for a couple of days. 😉
"The oranges are dry; the apples are mealy; and the papayas... I don't know what's going on with the papayas!"
evad04
15 years ago



I wasn't - I liked the players for the most part (some more than others), but I felt from day 1 with Sanders that he couldn't run that defense half as well as Bates did. I hated the lack of creativity and blitzing, and I was never even close to satisfied with the run defense. To me, it was like he didn't even understand the D and was just calling sets from a note card.

As far as some fans having blind optimism, I think the case can be made that your own vision isn't as clear as you'd like to claim it is.

First: Injuries. You may not think that Cullen Jenkins is very good - I don't know, I've not heard your opinion. IMO, the guy is and was the lynchpin for that defense. He's going to be back. As will our entire LB corps, which have been augmented with a kid who should be a strong competitor out of the gate. There's even indication that our own seldom-seen kid Harrell will be heathy, and we'll finally get to see what the kid can do. Am I using injuries as an excuse? Nope - what I am saying is that getting those guys we lost last season to injury back on the field is a reason for some optimism.

Additions: No, we don't know that Raji will come in and be the beast we need in the middle. No team who drafts a player KNOWS that they're getting what they paid for - Minnesota didn't KNOW AP would work out, and I remember constant hand-wringing about whether or not he was injury-prone his entire rookie year. But we can reasonably infer that the kid's measurables, in addition to the fact that he dominated in a big way against top-tier competition in college, indicate that he has good chance to be what we need. Same with Matthews - sure, he could flame out, but there's reason to hope that he'll be what we need on that right side. Again, it's reason, IMO, for some optimism.

Secondary: Yes, they're getting older. But I'm lost as to why you think Woodson is teetering on the precipice when he had a career year last year while playing with a broken toe - that's a little beyond me, and IMO it's also overly pessimistic. Al isn't everything he used to be, but nobody's going to work harder than he is, and he's still better than 90% of the other corners in our division. Williams could be due for a breakout season, as well, and we've got good youth improving behind them. Bigby is a question mark: If he starts the year out healthy, there's a chance we'll see a return to form, and if not we've picked up another guy who knows the scheme. Collins is a pro-bowler, so if you don't like him I can't help you there.

My point is: It's not blind optimism. There are plenty of indicators that this defense will be, at worst, some improvement over last year's defense. Are there question marks? Of course, and anyone here who looks you in the eye with a straight face and guarantees a top-whatever-ranked defense is probably being very optimistic. But to paint this as some pie-in-the-sky optimism based on nothing but faith in some guy in a suit is, to me, ridiculously pessimistic.

There's room in the middle, where the sensible folks sit.

"ILikeThePackers39" wrote:


Excellent post. One element of our defense from last year that is rarely mentioned is how well we did with interceptions. The Pack ranked third in the NFL in interceptions. When you consider how effectively teams were running on us, that statistic is even more impressive (you know, run sets up the pass, etc.).

I think interceptions can be "lucky" which is why one can't necessarily expect the same type of production this season. But doesn't it logically follow that if our run defense (and overall defense) improves even marginally that it will help the playmakers in our secondary? I think so.
William Henderson didn't have to run people over. His preferred method was levitation.
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zombieslayer
15 years ago



I think interceptions can be "lucky" which is why one can't necessarily expect the same type of production this season. But doesn't it logically follow that if our run defense (and overall defense) improves even marginally that it will help the playmakers in our secondary? I think so.

"evad04" wrote:



True about INTs being lucky, but when you have that opportunity, you have to take advantage of it.

Woody knows exactly when to get a jump on the ball and he's actually getting better with age. Thus is why his INT totals are IMPROVING, not going down.

My big beef with Collins in '07 was that he'd drop INTs. Dropping INTs is one of my big pet peeves, for INTs stop a drive right there.

In '08, he took that criticism to heart (I'm sure the Coaches said the same thing) and held on to his "lucky" opportunities. The thing is, if the scheme is good, you'll get your lucky opportunities. You just have to take advantage of them.

Capers' scheme will get us those opportunities. Plus it helps that we have ball hawks in the secondary.

As for the 2nd part in what you said, agreed. That sounds logical.
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Nonstopdrivel
15 years ago
I love the point you made that Harrell doesn't have to be good -- he just has to be there. One of the strengths of our '07 defense was that our line remained fresh because it was continually being rotated. As long as Harrell can spell the rest of the line and keep them fresh, we'll see a dramatic improvement in the line's performance.

I still want to see Harrell on a short leash, however. I think it will be a strategic mistake to roll into the season with him on the PUP. If he can't start on Day 1, I think he needs to go. The cap hit will be minimal and it will be time to give his successor a chance to step up and succeed.
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packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : the total and percentage are the same as the previous weeks
packerfanoutwest (19-Nov) : the total and percentage are the same as the previous weeks
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